Poomsae applications

[terryl965]

I was wondering how many of you really go into the actual breakdown of the application of your set of poomsae? Do you also examine what else can be added into the mix and think outside the box? I have always love to see what other simple application could be put into the mix when doing poomsae.

I know the Tae Gueks application are broke down to the simplest process in the textbook.

I also like to work weapons into all the poomsae, do you ever add weapons into the classical poomsae?

 

[dancingalone]

I was wondering how many of you really go into the actual breakdown of the application of your set of poomsae? Do you also examine what else can be added into the mix and think outside the box? I have always love to see what other simple application could be put into the mix when doing poomsae.

I know the Tae Gueks application are broke down to the simplest process in the textbook.

I also like to work weapons into all the poomsae, do you ever add weapons into the classical poomsae?

When you say poomsae, I think of the Taegeuk and Palgwe forms. I find it unlikely that many if any ever practice weapons with these forms. The people who know weapons such as the ones generally referred to as kobudo (bo, sai, tonfa, eku, nunchaku, kama, etc.) learn them using much older forms developed specifically for the practice of these weapons. The stances in these kata are different with weapons, and it's definitely an adaptation simply to do a Palgwe for example with some sai in hand. Not to say that you can't do this just for fun, but the level of sophistication is much, much lessened by such an exercise, since TKD forms are not designed at all for practice with weapons.

As for people practicing bare-handed applications within TKD forms, I'd like to hear how people do that if anyone would be willing to describe their methodology here.

 

[Kacey]

We create our own 3-, 2-, and 1-step sparring routines from the techniques in the tuls; once past basic 3-step sparring the techniques in use are up to the student, and they are expected to use techniques from the pattern they are learning at their rank. Every student is expected to create their own, to find what works for them in a particular situation, depending on the size and ability of their partner. The idea is to work out techniques in the controlled environment of step sparring that allows students to figure out for themselves what works for them, and then apply it in free sparring.

 

[dancingalone]

The idea is to work out techniques in the controlled environment of step sparring that allows students to figure out for themselves what works for them, and then apply it in free sparring.

My opinion is that most of the more potent interpretations of form applications are not suited for free sparring, so I don't spend a lot of time trying to connect the two activities.

I have a list of attacks like headlocks, cowboy punches, shoves, etc. that I use to classify form applications by. It's certainly possible that the same application can be listed into multiple attack groupings too. I've mulled over the idea of rearranging my internal list according to the Habitual Acts of Violence research conducted by Patrick McCarthy, which may be of value if I ever publish my own writings and research.

 

[Kacey]

My opinion is that most of the more potent interpretations of form applications are not suited for free sparring, so I don't spend a lot of time trying to connect the two activities.

I have a list of attacks like headlocks, cowboy punches, shoves, etc. that I use to classify form applications by. It's certainly possible that the same application can be listed into multiple attack groupings too. I've mulled over the idea of rearranging my internal list according to the Habitual Acts of Violence research conducted by Patrick McCarthy, which may be of value if I ever publish my own writings and research.

The concept applies more to those techniques that are legal in free sparring - which the types of techniques you list are not, at least not for us. We also create self-defense routines beginning at black belt that do include such techniques.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I was wondering how many of you really go into the actual breakdown of the application of your set of poomsae? Do you also examine what else can be added into the mix and think outside the box? I have always love to see what other simple application could be put into the mix when doing poomsae.

Similar to what Kacey said, I take techniques from the forms I know and use them in pre-arranged sparring. Not so much in 3-step sparring, although I do some of it there, but more so in 2-step sparring and, of course, in 1-step sparring. We also use them in ho sin sul at times, but there's not much of an emphasis on doing a self defense "routine" like the ones Kacey mentioned. AFAIK, these routines got started with the USTF as part of their testing requirements. Unfortunately, it has had the effect of making some people's ho sin sul much more of a show than a demonstration of skill, IMNSHO. But that's another topic altogether

My instructor also teaches what would be considered "alternate" or "hidden" applications to his students as part of normal pattern work. When learning a pattern the individual techniques are learned first, with basic applications. Then the form is learned with some of the alternate applications. Keupso chirigi isn't really something that works well when free sparring since gloves and foot gear precludes it so there isn't a lot of emphasis placed on using the applications in free sparring.

I know the Tae Gueks application are broke down to the simplest process in the textbook.

I have seen a few videos on youtube demonstrating the Taeguk forms that also showed some basic applications of some of the less obvious techniques. I thought that, in general, these were fairly well done. Personally, I'd like to see a whole DVD series from the ITF emphasizing pattern applications (basic applications and more advanced ones). Perhaps not using all the tuls, but at least ones such as Do-San, Won-Hyo, Yul-Gok, Joon-Gun, Hwa-Rang, Choong-Moo, Ge-Baek, Choong-Jang, Ju-Che (Ko-Dang), Yoon-Sin, Yon-Gae, Moon-Moo, and So-San.

I also like to work weapons into all the poomsae, do you ever add weapons into the classical poomsae?

Since Gen. Choi's Taekwon-Do is a weaponless system, no we do not do this. I have seen both videos and articles where people have gone through one or more of the tuls whiel using a weapon (a jang bong or tahn bong, usually). The material I have seen thus far has left me underwhelmed. I think dancingalone pointed out that Taekwon-Do patterns were designed to be done empty handed and it shows when people do them with weapons. At least the one's I have seen.

Personally, my biggest problem about "hidden" applications is that some of them get so far removed from the body mechanics used in the performance of the pattern that I have to wonder where application ends and flights of fancy begin. If one doesn't change the body mechanics they use when performing patterns, and often, to that used in the "hidden" applications then they aren't going to commit those mechanics to memory nearly as well as would be needed to perform the techniques under stress. Partner practice can, of course, help here but performing the pattern itself while visualizing these applications and moving the body in the way necessary to perform them while engaging in solo practice would be more than a little beneficial, IMO.

Pax,

Chris

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Terry, I do not practice the hyungs (poomsae) that you do (Taeguks, Palgwae). The form sets that my association practices are the old shotokan sets; Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.. .

I stress applications from our forms in both SD and one step sparring. I think that beyond the practical application of boonhae/bunkai, it makes the forms look better. If you know what you are doing from an intention stand point, then you tend to be more focused with your movement. This shows in power, snap, focus, and over all enthusiasm in the forms.

Granted, neither TKD nor TSD is known for its use of boonhae/bunkai, and our KJN never got too deep with it. I've picked up the practical applications from studying with other japanese and okinawan stylists, which carry over quite easily to my form sets since they are of the same name and essentially the same form.

I do not think it is necessary, from a modern TKD perspective, since there is very little grappling, joint locking, throws, or emphasis on lethal striking. That said, I think it is very beneficial if you are promoting a curriculum that puts any emphasis on SD.

I am not very familiar with the modern TKD forms, but I would imagine that at the very least, one could derive rudimentary applications by looking for "similar" movements in japanese/ okinawan forms' bunkai. I think the key with any application is trial and error, try it in as "real" of a scenario that you feel comfortable with and see if it's going to work.
Applying your knowledge of your art to your formsets, regardless of formal boonhae teachings will prove beneficial to you, but I recommend doing some youtube searches on boonhae/bunkai, as it will point you in a good direction.

 

[dancingalone]

I am not very familiar with the modern TKD forms, but I would imagine that at the very least, one could derive rudimentary applications by looking for "similar" movements in japanese/ okinawan forms' bunkai. I think the key with any application is trial and error, try it in as "real" of a scenario that you feel comfortable with and see if it's going to work.

I don't believe the creators of the Korean TKD forms had the same ideas of applications as do Okinawan-Japanese forms during their invention.

I think this would be a very interesting area of expansion for modern TKD, if an expert in modern TKD could devise a canon of form applications independent of karate theory.

 

[puunui]

I was wondering how many of you really go into the actual breakdown of the application of your set of poomsae? Do you also examine what else can be added into the mix and think outside the box? I have always love to see what other simple application could be put into the mix when doing poomsae.

I know the Tae Gueks application are broke down to the simplest process in the textbook.

I also like to work weapons into all the poomsae, do you ever add weapons into the classical poomsae?

I don't engage in any of that stuff. I am a student of Hapkido, and we practice the defenses and movements directly, with partners, instead of hunting for them in forms and practicing them solo. There is more than enough material in Hapkido for a lifetime of study. If I wasn't a student of Hapkido, then perhaps I would take a deeper interest in the applications in forms. To each his own.

 

[puunui]

Terry, I do not practice the hyungs (poomsae) that you do (Taeguks, Palgwae). The form sets that my association practices are the old shotokan sets; Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.. .

Do you know if your grandmaster know the Kukkiwon Taeguek, Palgwae and/or Yudanja poomsae?

 

[puunui]

Terry, I do not practice the hyungs (poomsae) that you do (Taeguks, Palgwae). The form sets that my association practices are the old shotokan sets; Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.. .

Do you know if your grandmaster knows the Kukkiwon Taeguek, Palgwae and/or Yudanja poomsae?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Do you know if your grandmaster knows the Kukkiwon Taeguek, Palgwae and/or Yudanja poomsae?

I don't know for certain, but I've never seen him demonstrate any of them and at this point they are not part of our curriculum. When we were still sending kids and young adults to USTU Jr. Olympics/Nationals, we had to know them to teach the students (if they wished to compete in forms). At that time, I was nothing more than a Jr. instructor, and it was not required of me to know all of them. I competed with Koryo, Keumgang, and Taebaek, but the only one I remember at this point is Koryo. These forms were taught to me by my Sahbumnim, but I never asked where he learned them.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't believe the creators of the Korean TKD forms had the same ideas of applications as do Okinawan-Japanese forms during their invention.

I think this would be a very interesting area of expansion for modern TKD, if an expert in modern TKD could devise a canon of form applications independent of karate theory.

From what I understand of it, I agree that it was not the intent of the creators of the modern TKD hyungs to design the forms with applications of self defense in the way that the Okinawan-Japanese forms were designed. That said, many of the movements I have seen are, at the very least, similar to movements found in the older forms. Granted some applications are used in combination with multiple moves, and mechanics will differ, so not all of the boonhae/bunkai would cross over, but I think there is enough common ground to make useful applications IF it is something a person would be interested in investigating. Again, I'm only making conjecture, because the only WTF form I remember is Koryo at this point.

I'll have to play around with Koryo and see if I can come up with anything useful.. .

 

[Master Dan]

I was wondering how many of you really go into the actual breakdown of the application of your set of poomsae? Do you also examine what else can be added into the mix and think outside the box? I have always love to see what other simple application could be put into the mix when doing poomsae.

I know the Tae Gueks application are broke down to the simplest process in the textbook.

I also like to work weapons into all the poomsae, do you ever add weapons into the classical poomsae?

All weopons are extensions of the hands or body so any single movement or Poomse application can be adapted to various weopons. Tae Gueks and Palgues all have many applications. The comments that tkd people are some how adding in things that were never there when sharing or discovering application knowledge from others is rediculous?

All martial art at its base was developed for self defense or offense what is rediculous is blind submission to unexplained movements that do no work for an individual. What matters is does your application work in acutal combative, stress and in real world applications. Doing a Poomse form kata on a technical basis for rank advancement, health and spiritual aspects are all worthy but the offence/defense applications should be developed over a long period of time depending on each individual students ability and maturity(to be trusted with some of the more dangerous techs)

I have never seen any good written or dvd explanations by Koreans/KKW specific to offensive interpretation or PP/grapling. That does not mean however that some Korean MA pioneers from Hapkido or other styles did or do not have that but I have not seen it generaly in TKD. I certainly think that GM Dr. Jung Hwan Park student of Yong-Sool Choi was as close as you can get to all of the above from a Korean perspective.

Good Post Thanks

 

[K31]

I really wish my instructors would have gone into the applications of the hyungs. To me it doesn't matter whether it's a hyung or a mathematical concept, if I know at least one practical application it's easier for me to retain.

 

[dancingalone]

From what I understand of it, I agree that it was not the intent of the creators of the modern TKD hyungs to design the forms with applications of self defense in the way that the Okinawan-Japanese forms were designed. That said, many of the movements I have seen are, at the very least, similar to movements found in the older forms. Granted some applications are used in combination with multiple moves, and mechanics will differ, so not all of the boonhae/bunkai would cross over, but I think there is enough common ground to make useful applications IF it is something a person would be interested in investigating. Again, I'm only making conjecture, because the only WTF form I remember is Koryo at this point.

I'll have to play around with Koryo and see if I can come up with anything useful.. .

I agree, yet I myself would be interested in "Korean" applications, rather than those coming from the Okinawan karate perspective. Even looking into the hapkido pool for inspiration would be murky.

But perhaps the idea of Korean form applications ultimately is tilting at windmills. Maybe they are not meant to exist, ever.

 

[puunui]

I don't believe the creators of the Korean TKD forms had the same ideas of applications as do Okinawan-Japanese forms during their invention. I think this would be a very interesting area of expansion for modern TKD, if an expert in modern TKD could devise a canon of form applications independent of karate theory.

It would be difficult, because obviously the movements in the the Kukkiwon poomsae are derived from the Okinawan kata. However, there are movements taken from Taekkyon. In Koryo for example, there is a knee cap dislocation that is directly attributable to Taekkyon. There are pictures of Mr. SON Duk Ki doing that exact same movement. The idea behind the move is to secure the opponent's leg with one hand by grabbing the ankle, and then with the other, you do dislocation of the knee cap, like you were shooting a spatula under a frying egg to turn it over.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I agree, yet I myself would be interested in "Korean" applications, rather than those coming from the Okinawan karate perspective. Even looking into the hapkido pool for inspiration would be murky.

But perhaps the idea of Korean form applications ultimately is tilting at windmills. Maybe they are not meant to exist, ever.

Yeah, I agree, I would be very interested in seeing "Korean" applications. However, since the forms were not likely created with that in mind, it is very unlikely that they exist at all. I cannot speak of the Hapkido pool, since I have never had any first hand exposure to Hapkido. I have tested applications of Bassai from a "Korean" perspective, and I have came up with applications from every move that work from a technical standpoint. By Korean, I am referring to the way Bassai was taught to me vs. the way it would be taught to karateka.

But it was my attempt of, more or less, reverse engineering applications to Korean adaptations of Japanese/Okinawan forms that may or may not have had applications in mind when the forms were changed. Nevertheless, they do seem to work.

Regardless of whether the pioneers of TKD had applications in mind when adapting and/or creating forms, I believe that there is a utility in boonhae/bunkai within them. If I practice a form thousands of times, it stands to reason that having multiple applications of a familiar move would be beneficial.

 

[puunui]

Yeah, I agree, I would be very interested in seeing "Korean" applications. However, since the forms were not likely created with that in mind, it is very unlikely that they exist at all. I cannot speak of the Hapkido pool, since I have never had any first hand exposure to Hapkido.

There are Hapkido like joint locks in the Taeguek poomsae. For example, in Taeguek 5 Jang, on the bottom bar, that knife hand block followed by an elbow can be an arm bar. The open hand knife hand block is a precursor to a grab with that open hand (general rule when there is an open hand block vs. a closed hand block in the Kukkiwon poomsae) and then you straighten the opponent's arm and fold your other elbow over your opponent's straightened arm.

 

[puunui]

And to tie in the discussion about weapon applications from poomsae, the opening movement in Taeguek 5 jang is a wrist grab escape followed by a strike to the top of the opponent's head. The strike to the opponent's head is movement #1 in the Hapkido dan bong (short stick) curriculum, which is a strike to the top of the opponent's head. the closed fist used in Taeguek 5 jang for the opening sequence shows that there is a weapon in your hand; as a general rule, when doing a wrist grab escape with nothing in your hand, you spread your fingers widely during the wrist escape, not so if you have something in your hand.

Stuff like that.