Police & Deadly Force

[MJS]

so by that logic, if i don't do what you say, when you say it, you are justified in killing me?

Are you talking about my post? If so, please show me where I said that. Also, please do not twist my words to suit your needs. My point was simple....99% of the time, the badguys bring on the headaches themselves. If you read my other posts, I also said that I didn't think that shooting the tires was the best option, compared to the stop sticks. You did see that post didn't you?

As far as not doing what the cop says...well, I applied this same idea when I worked for Corrections. I'd nicely ask someone to do something. They had 2 options....1) do it or 2) not do it. However, I made it very clear that it would be in their best interest to do option 1, because one way or another, that is what they'd end up doing, either the easy way or the hard way. If they failed to comply, I'd simply call for assistance, and we'd make them comply.

As far as the deadly force issue goes....if the cop is faced with it, then yes, he has the right to use it. I'm not saying that all cops are bad, that there aren't ones who abuse their power, because there are ones that do that.

The people who cry foul, the ones that say the cops abused the suspect, are the clueless ones that make me laugh. If the cop is going to cuff someone, he tells them to put their hands behind their back. They do it or they dont, but either way, they're gonna be cuffed. If they fight and it takes 4 cops to bring them down, and put their hands behind for them, then so be it. But the armchair QBers, should keep quiet, because I doubt they have a better answer. Maybe if the BG didn't resist and just complied, maybe if that guy didn't race away from the cops, he wouldn't have ended up getting bit. From what I hear he ended up with a number of dog bites.

 

[MJS]

"Again...how do you come to the conclusion that they were "shooting at the kid"? The kid GETTING shot is not in question. HOW he got shot is. You seem to be following along with the "THEY SHOT HIM FOR RUNNING A STOP SIGN" crowd. There were shots fired..the person was struck.. that is verifiable. HOW it happened and the intent of the person pulling the trigger are the issue here. None of us have any information to know that...but the local courts clearing the officer of criminal charges says something IMO.

By all accounts they were shooting at the tires. THAT is wide open for debate and something I would not be allowed to do nor would I have done in that circumstance. We do not know if it was against policy in the dept. we are discussing"
__________________



again, i'm sorry, but if the police had not been shooting, no one would have been shot. bottom line.

Then please post the SOPs for the dept in question regarding use of force and when they can/can't shoot.

IMO, you seem to be following the footsteps of a few past members here, ones that a) had a bad experience with the police, so you harbor a grudge, b) hate cops and look for every excuse to bash them, c) do not want to see someone elses point of view.

And maybe, if the ******* behind the wheel just stopped, none of this would be happening in the first place. Bottom line!!!!!! I find it interesting how you keep blaming the cops, but the actions of the BG seem to go unnoticed. Hmmm......

 

[Archangel M]

Im not even going to get into the "so if I don't do what you say you can kill me" crap (again...). Everybody knows thats not the fact, and I get tired of repeating the same police related debates here.

The bottom line is..no not doing what I say isn't cause to use deadly force, but WHAT exactly do you think the result is going to be? "Oh he doesn't want to be arrested...oh well perhaps another day"??

The moment a "I really respect the cops...I really do" poster becomes the person who constantly posts "killer cop" threads and lists of police shootings, my "not again" sensor goes off.

I mean...does anybody here NOT know that cops need to be judicious in their use of force? Is anybody truly shocked that there are indeed some bad cops out there? Does anybody really think that us cops really think we can just shoot somebody for not "doing as we say"?? Really? Do these posters really believe that they are teaching us all a lesson that we have never thought of or heard before?

 

[FierySquidFace]

:asian:

Then please post the SOPs for the dept in question regarding use of force and when they can/can't shoot.

IMO, you seem to be following the footsteps of a few past members here, ones that a) had a bad experience with the police, so you harbor a grudge, b) hate cops and look for every excuse to bash them, c) do not want to see someone elses point of view.

And maybe, if the ******* behind the wheel just stopped, none of this would be happening in the first place. Bottom line!!!!!! I find it interesting how you keep blaming the cops, but the actions of the BG seem to go unnoticed. Hmmm......

in this case, i do blame the cops, because they killed a kid who didn't deserve to be killed.

i do not hate cops, but i do have a problem with the corupt, trigger happy ones, who can justify anything to themselves.

*you guys don't seem to want to see anyone else's point of view either. only your own.*

this thread has somehow turned into LEOs vs me, and it's clear to me now that this entire conversation has been pointless, as i am only an "armchair qb", who "should keep quiet". alright. you got it. i'm done with this post. no one here can hear what i'm saying anyway.

I honestly respect what everyone has said, even though i may not agree with it, and i wish all the police officers here safety and happiness in their jobs, and their lives. again, if i have offended, i appologize, and i hope that you will not think badly of me based on my opinions and experiences.:asian:

 

[KenpoTex]

So, he didn't do anything but run a stop sign huh?...really?

(Don't ya just love Google?...hell, I was bored)

The chase began when Rodriguez ran a stop sign and refused to stop for a Department of Public Safety trooper. During the chase, Rodriguez can be seen on a DPS videotape ramming a Levelland police car at least twice.


The Rangers' report says the fatal shot occurred when reserve Officer Fred Gonzales was shooting at Rodriguez's tires. Gonzales had his arm outside the police car's passenger-side window while another officer drove. As Rodriguez swerved to strike the police car, Gonzales pulled his arm back, and the impact of the collision caused the gun to fire, striking Rodriguez above his left ear, the report stated.


In Gonzales' statement, he said, ''Just before the third collision, I quickly pulled my arm back into the patrol car in order to keep it from being crushed between the suspect's vehicle and the patrol unit. Just as soon as I pulled my arm into the vehicle, the suspect hit the patrol unit, and another round was fired into the driver's side window at that point.''

http://www.avalanchejournal.com/stories/051600/loc_051600035.shtml

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The chase lasted four minutes, according to police records, during which time Rodriguez's car rammed a police patrol car at least twice and Wooten and Gonzales fired 16 shots.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]According to the Texas Rangers, who investigated the shooting for Levelland police, Gonzales fired the fatal shot unintentionally. Gonzales was shooting at Rodriguez's tires and pulled his arm inside the window as the two vehicles collided, causing his gun to fire, the Rangers concluded.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
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http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/071803/reg_071803068.shtml[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
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The wording in the second article I cited is close enough to the segment you originally posted that it appears to me that you may have left out some of the damning details of Rodriguez's actions.

From reading these two articles, it sounds like they opened fire after he started ramming their car or attempting to force them off the road.
Now, I don't personally think that shooting at tires is an effective method of stopping a car. I've seen a tire shot with a handgun and it takes quite a while for the tire to flatten. Shooting through the rim with a rifle is a little more effective in terms of the rate of air loss. Furthermore, I've talked to/heard from guys who have done quite a bit of shooting at vehicles (roadblocks in Iraq) and the consensus is that if you want to stop a car by shooting at it, aim for the driver. Why? Because even with flat tires or rounds through critical engine components, the car can still be driven quite a ways.

It sounds like the fatal shot was unintentional. Was it unfortunate that the guy died? Sure, I guess... However, he was the one that precipitated the situation and was, apparently, deliberately engaged in actions that posed a serious risk to the officers who were trying to apprehend them. Make no mistake about it, a vehicle is a deadly weapon when used with that intent. If the news stories are accurate and he was actively trying to ram them, they were perfectly within their rights to shoot him.

 

[seasoned]

Laws wouldn't have been broken, motorists wouldn't have been endangered, guns wouldn't have been drawn, and the perp would have a very different future today if he had simply pulled over for the officer. Bottom line.

The above post is very true, and my sentiments exactly. Also, it was said in earlier posts, that LEO don't start their day saying to themselves, hopefully I can draw down on someone today, and take a life. More over most officers think, today, I need and want to stay safe, and return home to my loved ones after my shift. My suggestion would be, don't raise red flags when interacting with LEO. Red flags can be raised by our actions and our attitude along with our verbal actions. Once a red flag goes up, we start down a slippery slope. Kind, courteous, and respectful, is the order of the day, when dealing with anyone, even LEO.

 

[MJS]

:asian:

in this case, i do blame the cops, because they killed a kid who didn't deserve to be killed.

And while I agree with that, you seem to be forgetting one very important thing....if this kid stopped, none of this would have happened. I also said, which you're either not seeing, or intentionally avoiding, the parts when I said, a) that if you're questioning the policies and procedures sooo much, please post them so we can see exactly what they are and if anything was violated, b) that stop sticks probably should have been used, c) that you continue to avoid the comment that I've said, which is, that you're failing to see any other view except the one from the badguys point of view.

i do not hate cops, but i do have a problem with the corupt, trigger happy ones, who can justify anything to themselves.

Have you been reading anything I or anyone else is saying? Because it sure as hell seems like you're not. Once again, I've said that I agree that not all cops are sqweeky clean.

*

you guys don't seem to want to see anyone else's point of view either. only your own.*

Right back at ya pal.

this thread has somehow turned into LEOs vs me, and it's clear to me now that this entire conversation has been pointless, as i am only an "armchair qb", who "should keep quiet". alright. you got it. i'm done with this post. no one here can hear what i'm saying anyway.

If you actually were reading what we were saying, instead of twisting our words around, maybe you'd have a clue here. Fact is, you are only looking at this from one side, that side being from the bagguys eyes. You harp and harp that the cops shouldn't have killed the kid, and while I do agree that it was tragic, it could have been avoided, IF HE STOPPED!!! From the beginning, your posts have been anti cop, which if you actually read the rules, of not only the forum but of this section, you'd see that the bashing is not allowed. Go, stay, whatever dude. Fact is, I'm not the only one who's saying that you're only seeing this as, "Ohhh poor poor bad guy." You and I listed other options, ie: stop sticks, but unless you know the rules and regulations, the pursuit policy, use of force policy, yes you are doing nothing but armchair QBing this thread.

I honestly respect what everyone has said, even though i may not agree with it, and i wish all the police officers here safety and happiness in their jobs, and their lives. again, if i have offended, i appologize, and i hope that you will not think badly of me based on my opinions and experiences.:asian:

Do you really? Looking at your posts, I'm inclined to say I beg to differ, but anyways.....

the problem is that it appears that you're not willing to look at this any other way, other than harping on what Arch said. You're looking at it 1 way and 1 way only.

 

[MJS]

So, he didn't do anything but run a stop sign huh?...really?

(Don't ya just love Google?...hell, I was bored)

http://www.avalanchejournal.com/stories/051600/loc_051600035.shtml

http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/071803/reg_071803068.shtml


The wording in the second article I cited is close enough to the segment you originally posted that it appears to me that you may have left out some of the damning details of Rodriguez's actions.

From reading these two articles, it sounds like they opened fire after he started ramming their car or attempting to force them off the road.
Now, I don't personally think that shooting at tires is an effective method of stopping a car. I've seen a tire shot with a handgun and it takes quite a while for the tire to flatten. Shooting through the rim with a rifle is a little more effective in terms of the rate of air loss. Furthermore, I've talked to/heard from guys who have done quite a bit of shooting at vehicles (roadblocks in Iraq) and the consensus is that if you want to stop a car by shooting at it, aim for the driver. Why? Because even with flat tires or rounds through critical engine components, the car can still be driven quite a ways.

It sounds like the fatal shot was unintentional. Was it unfortunate that the guy died? Sure, I guess... However, he was the one that precipitated the situation and was, apparently, deliberately engaged in actions that posed a serious risk to the officers who were trying to apprehend them. Make no mistake about it, a vehicle is a deadly weapon when used with that intent. If the news stories are accurate and he was actively trying to ram them, they were perfectly within their rights to shoot him.

Well, well, well...look what we have here! Very interesting. And yes, this is the reason why I put little faith in only one article. See, here we have more info, info that explains more, why the cops did what they did. We have people crying foul at the cops, because they assumed the kid just ran the stop sign, now we have this. Very interesting.

As for shooting the driver not the car...yes, there've been a few cases in CT in which the cop did the same thing...shot at the driver, not the car. The driver is using the car as a deadly force weapon.

Nice articles. Thanks for posting this.

 

[jks9199]

:asian:

in this case, i do blame the cops, because they killed a kid who didn't deserve to be killed.

i do not hate cops, but i do have a problem with the corupt, trigger happy ones, who can justify anything to themselves.

*you guys don't seem to want to see anyone else's point of view either. only your own.*

this thread has somehow turned into LEOs vs me, and it's clear to me now that this entire conversation has been pointless, as i am only an "armchair qb", who "should keep quiet". alright. you got it. i'm done with this post. no one here can hear what i'm saying anyway.

I honestly respect what everyone has said, even though i may not agree with it, and i wish all the police officers here safety and happiness in their jobs, and their lives. again, if i have offended, i appologize, and i hope that you will not think badly of me based on my opinions and experiences.:asian:

I hear what you're saying. The death of that kid was a tragedy -- and it was partly the result of the police action. It was at least equally the result of HIS choice to flee. Would you be as upset over his death if he'd gone too fast into a curve while fleeing, and crashed, killing himself? The situation isn't that different -- only the mechanism.

Do you hear what we're saying? That police use of deadly force is not something that is taken lightly, and that few cops want to kill someone? I'll tell you -- the "I respect you but..." has a rings a lot like the "some of my best friends are... but I wouldn't want one to date my sister" argument.

 

[punisher73]

No, again...if the kid had not been committing a felony he wouldn't have been accidently been shot when his car ran into the police vehicle. Again, that is the fallacy that news wants to portray. It INITIALLY started as a traffic violation (running the stop sign) when he CHOSE to run from the police in his motor vehicle he now changed the situation to that of a felony crime in progress.

Why second guess what COULD have been done by the police? How do we know they had stop sticks, were the officers there certified to use them? Were they certified or within policy to do a PIT maneuver on the car to stop it? Were they within policy to shoot out the tires?

It's easy to quarterback after the fact and say what could have been done differently, but if they were within their policy then they didn't do anything legally wrong.

 

[FierySquidFace]

wow. you guys are really something. you have effectivly proven that there can be no discussion with your kind, and any attempts for rational discussion are futile. :deadhorse whatever respect i have for you has been significantly diminished by the posts in this thread. i had other thoughts and points to make, but they would only fall on deaf ears, so i choose not to associate with you, or those like you any longer.

 

[Archangel M]

wow. you guys are really something. you have effectivly proven that there can be no discussion with your kind, and any attempts for rational discussion are futile. :deadhorse whatever respect i have for you has been significantly diminished by the posts in this thread. i had other thoughts and points to make, but they would only fall on deaf ears, so i choose not to associate with you, or those like you any longer.

Color me not surprised. It looks like most people here saw the true intent behind all the words from the get-go.

 

[jks9199]

wow. you guys are really something. you have effectivly proven that there can be no discussion with your kind, and any attempts for rational discussion are futile. :deadhorse whatever respect i have for you has been significantly diminished by the posts in this thread. i had other thoughts and points to make, but they would only fall on deaf ears, so i choose not to associate with you, or those like you any longer.

First -- people have listened to you. They simply haven't fallen into the trap of simplifying the events that you have. You see "kid ran from the cops and got shot." We see "kid ran from the cops, tried to run the cops off the road, and the cops tried to stop him by shooting the tires out, and tragically ended up shooting the kid unintentionally." Very similar -- but a very significant difference, too. It's kind of like the scene in one of the Pink Panther movies where Clouseau asks a man if his dog bites, and the man says "no." Clouseau proceeds to pet the dog, and get bit. He asks the man, "I thought you said your dog did not bite" and the man answers "That is not my dog."
[yt]SXn2QVipK2o[/yt]

You're skipping a few key details in your rush to find the cops to be vicious killers.

But this one single case was not what I was intending in starting this thread, anyway. I was hoping to enlighten people who have learned what cops are like from movies like Training Day, The Lethal Weapon, Dirty Harry, and other similar sources about the real truth of lethal force issues in law enforcement. There are simply tons of misunderstandings, misconceptions, and misperceptions about the issue...

But, then, sometimes, talking to people is like trapping a raccoon. One way to trap a raccoon is to put some bait in a knot hole, with a couple of nails angled so that the raccoon can't pull it's closed hand out of the hole... The raccoon will grab the bait, and be stuck simply because it won't open it's hand. And some people are so fixed on their ideas that they won't hear anything else.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There's probably no one on this site who will take bad cops to task more than me here. I've posted countless bad cop articles and clips, from cops harassing law abiding protesters and issuing illegal orders to photographers to delete photos, to clips of questionable take downs and outright assaults by them. There is NO excuse for cops who cross those lines and violate their oaths, uniforms and the public trust.

That said, people bear the responsibility for the results of their actions. Run from police, force an escalation, and you will end up hurt and possibly dead. People have been killed because they -CHOOSE- to run from a minor traffic stop, or because they saw a cop across the street.

"Rodriguez refused to stop," Why? what was he hiding? Every MV law I've read states "you stop for cop, you show id, you take breath test if asked" It's a damn shame he was shot and killed, however if he had
#1 first of all not run the stop sign there'd have been no reason for the cops to order him to pull over.
Second, if he had complied with their lawful order, they wouldn't have had to try to stop him.

He had 3 chances to do the right thing that could have saved his life.

You want to look at bad cop cases like the NYC cops who sodomized a prisoner, or the Iowa (??) cop who jammed a taser up a guys ***, or the cop who executed a guy at a subway stop, those threads are in the Study I believe. I'm happy to see them examined with credible info and facts brought up.

Some loser whose own stupidity got him offed by a chance shot, doesn't interest me.

 

[MJS]

wow. you guys are really something. you have effectivly proven that there can be no discussion with your kind, and any attempts for rational discussion are futile. :deadhorse whatever respect i have for you has been significantly diminished by the posts in this thread. i had other thoughts and points to make, but they would only fall on deaf ears, so i choose not to associate with you, or those like you any longer.

Dude, I dont know what you're talking about, but you are the one thats not reading...anything! YOU are the one who is the only bleeding heart, who doesnt want to see ANYTHING that the badguys do. You instead, just harp on how wrong, supposedly the cops are.

I and others, have pointed out, which you FAIL to see, that while there may have been other options, until you know what those options are, dont say they were wrong. Did you research the SOPs for that PD? Probably not! So until you know if they were wrong or right, stop flapping that the cops are the badguys. I find it VERY interesting that you see nothing wrong with the scumbag punk kid fleeing, driving like an *******, and endangering the lives of others that may have been on the road. You see nothing wrong with that though, do you? And you call us closed minded? Please.

As I pointed out, which I will do again. Read the rules for this section. If you're going to post nothing but anti cop comments here, go elsewhere.

 

[FierySquidFace]

:sadsong:

 

[The Last Legionary]

:sadsong:

Tell me Squidling, you just here to **** on some cops or do you actually have something worth reading to post? I ask because so far all I've seen from you is here is the idea that cops should let asshats who break the law get away so they don't get hurt. I think you run from cops, you deserve the *** whoopin you get.

Let me guess. You got your *** whooped sometime just because to thought you were a smart guy and it chaffs your panties?

 

[FierySquidFace]

Tell me Squidling, you just here to **** on some cops or do you actually have something worth reading to post? I ask because so far all I've seen from you is here is the idea that cops should let asshats who break the law get away so they don't get hurt. I think you run from cops, you deserve the *** whoopin you get.

Let me guess. You got your *** whooped sometime just because to thought you were a smart guy and it chaffs your panties?

...:wah:

 

[Archangel M]

I will go as far to say that perhaps the officers in question WERE outside of policy and perhaps were negligent in their use of force. I have agreed many times that some cops are "bad" and some cops while not "bad" made poor choices in use of force. Is that the case here" Dunno. But their local court system didn't think so....

BUT! This WAS NOT a case of "HE WAS KILLED FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION!!". or the good old "COPS KILL MAN FOR RUNNING A STOP SIGN!!".

The moment people start the game of .."I really respest cops but...THEY KILL PEOPLE FOR RUNNING STOP SIGNS!!!"...I hit the ignore option.

Which I have.

 

[FierySquidFace]

Hockley County Law Enforcement Crumbling from the Outside In

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/levelland-tx/T4VIC6SJGUI31G56F

stories i could not find but happened when i lived there include a questionable suicide by cop, people of legal drinking age being arrested in their home for public intoxication, an officer being fired for not reponding to a call- because he was fornicating with a conveniance store clerk in the alley, drug plants, etc... i tried to find documentation, but maybe you guys will have better luck than me. seriously, check it out. let me know what you find.