pivoting training?

[exile]

Given the importance of pivoting in both forms performance and especially in solid kicking techniques, I'm curious about how instructors train this skill, and how many people work on this technical element, either in their classes, or at home (or both). I'm particularly interested in the fact that in order to initiate the pivot, and get it running smoothly, it's necessary to commit full body weight to the ball of the foot, but once the pivot is complete, the weight has to be equalized over the whole area of the foot in order to be in good enough balance to deliver a rear leg side kick, say, and `freeze' in the extended position for an indefinitely long time. To me this suggests that the forward weight shift to get the pivot going and then the weight redistribution phase are key elements in a well-executed kick, and I'm wondering how people train their pivoting skills to be able to get back into balance after the pivot phase. Any good ideas about how to teach this skill, what drills work and so on, will be gratefully stolen!

 

[CuongNhuka]

Sadly, the only good way I've found is to do it slowly a few times, and then slowly do it faster. Then (something fun) is to try to cover as much distance as possible in one kick. I'm at about 5 inches on average.
For forms (as an at home thing, in a hallway), from a wide stance with one foot at one baseboard, and the other at the other, "walk" up the hallway. Back foot goes to one baseboard, then back out to the other.

Good Luck!

 

[still learning]

Hello, UM? Pivoting meaning turning? Alway be-aware of your center of balance, do not bounce, keeping you body/head in the same height.

Unless turning into a cat stance....you should always be balance on both balls of the feet. (also not flat footed). At least a sheet of paper can be slide under the heels.

The key in my beliefs....is be center/ BALANCE...move quickly. Do not worry of just thinking pivoting.....it's purpose is movement into a ready position.

Breath and learn when to breath in pivoting, in katas's (most) you should end in the same spot, if your pivoting is the same space.

Watch/beaware of your center point is always correct?

Aloha ( Not sure if this is what you are asking? and I not sure what I am saying? )

 

[qi-tah]

Maybe thinking of the position of the hips and knees, rather than the pivoting foot? One of the easiest pivots i can think of is the one used for an uppercut... you stand with feet a little more than shoulder width apart and alternate uppercuts with either fist. You should notice the heel on the same side as yr punching hand pivoting laterally as you "screw" the knee down and yr hips turn to the side. This also gets you used to dropping yr centre of gravity slightly as you pivot, helping yr balance.

We also do pivoting exercises in class on bricks - 2 people face each other, each standing on bricks placed shoulder width apart. Stepping diagonally across each other, they have to change places with their partners, alternating pivoting forward around the bricks (face first) or swinging backward onto the bricks (back first). There are arm combinations that we practice with this exercise as well, but solid footwork is basically the guts of it. If the flat of the brick becomes too easy to pivot on, then place the bricks on their side and go again. (Note: best to use heavy, solid bricks - not the one's with the holes in them!)

I guess these pivots are sort of opposite tho to the side-kick scenario , where yr pivoting leg is a lot straighter, like a brace for the horizontal forces in the kick. I wouldn't know what to suggest for that.

 

[exile]

Maybe thinking of the position of the hips and knees, rather than the pivoting foot? One of the easiest pivots i can think of is the one used for an uppercut... you stand with feet a little more than shoulder width apart and alternate uppercuts with either fist. You should notice the heel on the same side as yr punching hand pivoting laterally as you "screw" the knee down and yr hips turn to the side. This also gets you used to dropping yr centre of gravity slightly as you pivot, helping yr balance.

We also do pivoting exercises in class on bricks - 2 people face each other, each standing on bricks placed shoulder width apart. Stepping diagonally across each other, they have to change places with their partners, alternating pivoting forward around the bricks (face first) or swinging backward onto the bricks (back first). There are arm combinations that we practice with this exercise as well, but solid footwork is basically the guts of it. If the flat of the brick becomes too easy to pivot on, then place the bricks on their side and go again. (Note: best to use heavy, solid bricks - not the one's with the holes in them!)

I guess these pivots are sort of opposite tho to the side-kick scenario , where yr pivoting leg is a lot straighter, like a brace for the horizontal forces in the kick. I wouldn't know what to suggest for that.

These are interesting-sounding exercises, qt, but the kinds of pivoting that various kinds of kicks commonly used in KMAs (and increasingly incorporated into karate, I gather) require you to pivot in place on a straightish leg, as you say, while the non-pivoting leg is in a high pre-chambered position. Pivoting on the heel isn't considered good form, and I think this makes sense in terms of balance: if you try bringing your knee up very high, as close to your chest as possibe, and then pivoting for the kick—it could be a side kick or a turning/roundhouse kick—you find that you automatically project your weight forward; trying to do the pivot on the heel leaves you significantly more unbalanced. One of the training uses of the turns in the hyungs (as vs. their SD bunkai) is to get students used to the feel of pivoting on the balls of their feet, to get that idea into muscle memory so that when they start trying to learn the basic TKD kicks in good form, they've already got some idea of what's supposed to be where in the setup. Once you've pivoted part of the way, there's a further rotation of the knee so that the bent leg is parallel to the floor, and then you either drive the leg out hard so that the heel strikes the target (during which the pivoting foot continues further around till it's 180º from the target), the classick side kick, or you use your knee as the center of rotation for your lower leg, which swings around the knee to bring the instep, or ball of the foot, depending, into contact with the target. The crux of the problem is that once the pivot ends, the kicker's weight needs to become evenly redistributed on the foot of the balance leg, and dynamically maintain that even distribution as the other leg extends to complete the kick. This is where things get very tricky. Like any other complex kinaesthtic skill where balance has to be maintained dynamically through a complex set of motions, you can't really tell people what they need to do—you can of course describe it but the words aren't really going to help—and you can't actually show people what to do because the crucial adjustments are internal.

When I was a ski instructor way, way back when, we had the same problems communicating skiers how to achieve very short radius turns by shifing their weight laterally from the old outside ski in the turn to the intended new one during the first third of the turn and then rolling the new outside knee inward to get the turn started carving. But we had a whole library of exercises, drills and tricks that we could use to get the necessary kinæsthetic skills across—and they were really effective, battle-tested by instructors at hundreds of ski schools across the US and refined and updated in our weekly clinics. But in my dojang, we don't do specific skill-development exercises at the same fine scale. I'm wondering if others, either as instructors or students, do employ some kind of specific exercise to expedite this skill development. My own experience has been that this is a very tricky thing to get across to people, one of the hardest parts of the skill sets needed for TKD, Karate, and maybe some of the other arts that rely on these kinds of balance abilities.

 

[shesulsa]

I just have everyone focus on my support leg to witness the goal - the pivot of the foot. I like to drill incomplete reverse kicks as a focus of pivoting the support leg - especially side kicks as the movement is most exaggerated with that kick. So one would bring the rear leg around into kicking position as the support leg pivots into proper position.

With some students I'll actually take it down as far as teaching them how to do the Twist (yes, as in the dance craze). Hip movement usually has be coached carefully to avoid ankle, knee and low back injury.

Once they "get" the pivot alone down with the leg chambered and ready, then we add the extension with a little pause at the chambering moment, then move forward to the fluid, complete kick.

 

[exile]

I just have everyone focus on my support leg to witness the goal - the pivot of the foot. I like to drill incomplete reverse kicks as a focus of pivoting the support leg - especially side kicks as the movement is most exaggerated with that kick. So one would bring the rear leg around into kicking position as the support leg pivots into proper position.

Without actually doing the extension, right? It's funny, because that's something I sometimes do on my own as a way to `pinpoint' the first part of the balance task (the second one being maintenance of balance through the whole full extension of the kick, even when the extension is `frozen' at the fullest point and held there). So you do this as a class exercise, eh?

With some students I'll actually take it down as far as teaching them how to do the Twist (yes, as in the dance craze). Hip movement usually has be coached carefully to avoid ankle, knee and low back injury.

Dang, I knew the Twist would come in useful someday... :lol: (Do any of them actually know what dance it is you're teaching them?)

Once they "get" the pivot alone down with the leg chambered and ready, then we add the extension with a little pause at the chambering moment, then move forward to the fluid, complete kick.

That's very interesting... so you actually do break it down into (i) the pivot+chambering phase and then (ii) the extension phase, and train them on the first separately... do most of them `get' it? And do you ever try to get them to hold the extension for a count of ten, say?

I'm interested in just this sort of thing, because I find that most students (i) are quite sloppy about both side kicks and turning kicks, sometimes producing a weird beast that's sort of a mix of both (they see the kicks performed, but they don't really know what it is they're seeing), and (ii) usually have a hard time with the balance aspect of the kick, which emerges very clearly if you try to get them to slow the kick down. Doing it in two stages like that, from the get-go, might be a way of approaching both problems... thanks for that idea, S.!

 

[shesulsa]

Without actually doing the extension, right?

Correct, but the extension is added later.

It's funny, because that's something I sometimes do on my own as a way to `pinpoint' the first part of the balance task (the second one being maintenance of balance through the whole full extension of the kick, even when the extension is `frozen' at the fullest point and held there). So you do this as a class exercise, eh?

Yes. In fact, I often substitute for a colleague of mine; when we work these the kids HATE HATE HATE it. I think this is one of the exercises through which I earned the distinct nickname of "sadist" from one of his students. :lol2:

Dang, I knew the Twist would come in useful someday... :lol: (Do any of them actually know what dance it is you're teaching them?)

Some do, yes! Some laugh so hard and are so embarrassed they can barely bring themselves to do it.

That's very interesting... so you actually do break it down into (i) the pivot+chambering phase and then (ii) the extension phase, and train them on the first separately... do most of them `get' it? And do you ever try to get them to hold the extension for a count of ten, say?

Oh goodness, yes! Front, chop/roundhouse, side, back. Try slowing down the spin kick too, that's usually ... ah ... entertaining.

I'm interested in just this sort of thing, because I find that most students (i) are quite sloppy about both side kicks and turning kicks, sometimes producing a weird beast that's sort of a mix of both (they see the kicks performed, but they don't really know what it is they're seeing), and (ii) usually have a hard time with the balance aspect of the kick, which emerges very clearly if you try to get them to slow the kick down. Doing it in two stages like that, from the get-go, might be a way of approaching both problems... thanks for that idea, S.!

Let me know what kind of results you see.

 

[Danny T]

Exile,
We use the twist type exersices also and usually have a great laugh about it and make it fun. Something I also do is have students stand on one leg with the opposite foot tucked behind the knee of the standing leg. From that position have them do a one legged twist pivioting on the one foot. Up onto the ball twist and stablize then back to the starting position. We will work up to doing a 100 on each leg. Great for the piviot and balance while strenghtening the foot and calf muscles.

Danny T

 

[Steel Tiger]

We have a lot of kicks that involve pivoting in our Tiger form (oddly enough they are variations of a Tiger kick, back kick if you prefer). There is a sequence in the form that requires a gliding Tiger kick followed by a 90 degree change of direction, then a Crane (front) kick, then a turning Tiger kick, then a jumping Crane kick, and lastly a Whirlwind kick (jumping, spinning Lotus kick). This sequence involves a lot of pivoting and regaining of balance and, now that I think about it, I don't notice a movement "back" from the ball of the foot to the whole foot. Rather, there is a continual flow of movement forward toward each new kick.

I think that the greatest contributor to balance for us in pivoting kick techniques is actually hitting heavy targets. It tends to make you think more about what's going on, especially when using a sequence of kicks.

I suppose the fact that I study bagua with all its circle walking and direction changing contributes significantly to pivot training.

 

[exile]

Yes. In fact, I often substitute for a colleague of mine; when we work these the kids HATE HATE HATE it. I think this is one of the exercises through which I earned the distinct nickname of "sadist" from one of his students. :lol2:

They hate it? What's not to like?... hmmmm.... I'm guessing it's slowing down the motion and freezing the extension... a good deal of toppling over and desperate grabs for balance might be involve, eh?

Some do, yes! Some laugh so hard and are so embarrassed they can barely bring themselves to do it.

Well, we of that era were pretty risqué and shameless lot back in the day... It's really funny, looking at old movies from that era of the early 1960s with dance scenes in it where people are doing the Twist...

Oh goodness, yes! Front, chop/roundhouse, side, back. Try slowing down the spin kick too, that's usually ... ah ... entertaining.

As I say... probably a lot of people tipping over—not exactly Enter the Dragon, the scene I'm picturing ... :lol:

Let me know what kind of results you see.

I will, S. We get going again in our Autumn session the week after next, and there should be quite a bit to report! Thanks again...

Exile,
We use the twist type exersices also and usually have a great laugh about it and make it fun. Something I also do is have students stand on one leg with the opposite foot tucked behind the knee of the standing leg. From that position have them do a one legged twist pivioting on the one foot. Up onto the ball twist and stablize then back to the starting position. We will work up to doing a 100 on each leg. Great for the piviot and balance while strenghtening the foot and calf muscles.

Danny T

Yes, I'm visualizing trying this kind of group exercise, based on what you all have been suggesting. The stabilization part, I predict, will be the tricky part for most of them 100 per leg sounds like an awful lot to be starting with... I think I'll work them up to something like that in increments of 10 or so for a bit. Thanks for the suggestion, Danny!

We have a lot of kicks that involve pivoting in our Tiger form (oddly enough they are variations of a Tiger kick, back kick if you prefer). There is a sequence in the form that requires a gliding Tiger kick followed by a 90 degree change of direction, then a Crane (front) kick, then a turning Tiger kick, then a jumping Crane kick, and lastly a Whirlwind kick (jumping, spinning Lotus kick). This sequence involves a lot of pivoting and regaining of balance and, now that I think about it, I don't notice a movement "back" from the ball of the foot to the whole foot. Rather, there is a continual flow of movement forward toward each new kick.

I think in working out a tech in the context of a form, what you're drilling does include smooth and seamless transitions from move to move. With the sorts of kihon drills for kicking that I've been thinking about, the skill level is much more basic. A lot of the kids I teach don't actually have much in the way of balance control.

I think that the greatest contributor to balance for us in pivoting kick techniques is actually hitting heavy targets. It tends to make you think more about what's going on, especially when using a sequence of kicks.

I love heavy bag work, and we do a fair amount in my class, but they also can use the bag as a way of propping themselves, where kicking the air would stress their balance sense more.

I suppose the fact that I study bagua with all its circle walking and direction changing contributes significantly to pivot training.

That makes a lot of sense; TKD forms involve a lot of 90º, 180º and 270º turns, but the art itself is very, very linear and karate-like in both its strategic plan and also tech execution—these rear-leg kicks are just about the only places where pivoting is a crucial part of the tech training. I really think the pivot/balance connection tends to be a bit neglected as a basic TKD training element...

 

[crushing]

Do you consider the evasion set drill I mentioned in the 'Bunny Hop' thread as pivot training?

 

[TheOriginalName]

I thought i would chime in here with my 2cents.....

I've only been training for a few months - and loving it - but have found the pivoting of the front foot during a kick one of the more difficult things to pick up.

The way i have been practising is to simply break the kick down into step - with lots of self checking.

So at the start i'll check my stance, check my distance, check where my eyes are looking (working on attempting not to look at where i am about to kick)

Then i'll go through the kick but hold it at the contact point (if i can). Then again, check that my foot had pivoted, check that my hips have rotated, check that my shoulders are rotated, check that my arms are still up ....and so on and so forth.

Then you return to the start....and it starts again....

This is what i do, as check list type things work for me; and without being up-myself i've managed to impove the quality of my kicks (but with plenty of work left with them).

Just my 2 cents....for what they are worth (probably about 1 cent........)

 

[Last Fearner]

Any good ideas about how to teach this skill, what drills work and so on, will be gratefully stolen!

:mst: :supcool:

 

[exile]

Any good ideas about how to teach this skill, what drills work and so on, will be gratefully stolen!

:mst: :supcool:

But I do credit my sources, honest!—I'm not like Oscar Wilde, who was once asked if some witty epigram he had just uttered was original with him.

`No', Wilde replied. `But it will be...'

 

[exile]

So I've been experimenting a bit with Shesulsa's pivoting exercises (described here), trying to maintain a kind of heightened awareness of the various dynamics involved and the demands they place on our motor coordination skills. One of the things that I have noticed, doing that incomplete back kick drill she mentions, is that the in-place spin which the pivot consists of throws your weight to the outside of the rotation, as you'd expect from basic mechanics; once the pivot is completed, however, you can't let your weight stay out there (on the outer edge of the sole of your foot, it feels like) or you will be seriously off-balance, so you have to let your weight distribution `flow' back along your pivoting foot toward the heel, to get an even placement over the whole foot. And there isn't an awful lot of time to do this.

What I've found helpful and reliable, after several hundred repetitions of the pivot, is a quick but smooth inward push of the pivoting leg's knee toward the vertical axis of the body. Nothing very dramatic or long-term—once the kicking leg is thrust outward for the full extension, you're going to have to do some specific upper-body adjustment that depends on the height of the kick and other factors—just enough to get you completely neutral balance preparatory to that extension. It's quite a slight physical gesture, but does seem to help markedly in getting you back to a stable state between the pivot and the thrusting extension, which where you want to be....

 

[exile]

Continuing with Shesulsa's pivoting exercise and steadily increasing the reps, I've noticed something that may prove useful to others who want to take advantage of it for their own training or incorporate it into their teaching, as I plan to do now that our TKD classes have resumed after the summer break.

Since the most `performance-critical' aspect of pivoting is in the execution of turning and side kicks, I've been doing this exercise with the following components in the order given:

(i) raise the knee of the kicking leg as high as possible, with the front of the body facing the direction of the intended kick;

(ii) moving bodyweight forward onto the ball of the foot, pivot roughly 75% through the arc appropriate for the kick (the full arc being 180º for a side kick and around 100º for a turning kick) with the knee kept high and the thigh tight against the chest;

(iii) reaching the terminus of the pivot, bring the body's weight back into distribution over teh whole of the turning foot.​

Parts (iv) and up would pertain to the extension of the kicking leg, but the thing that I've noticed in particular about this initial phase of the kick, which the exercise described isolates, is that in carrying out (iii), I sometime wind up in imperfect balance, so that I wouldn't be able to say `frozen' in my final position for an indefinite period of time, up the limits of my strength, tolerance for `muscle burn', etc. I've tried to figure out what I'm doing wrong when this happens, as opposed to the instances where my balance is good enough to allow me to maintain the final stationary position without any further effort.

And after trying to banish extraneous distraction, or overly conscious thinking, while I'm doing the exercise, and just trying to be aware of my body mechanics and positioning by `feel', what I've observed is that when you shift your weight onto the ball of the foot, and complete the pivot, what you've done is raised your height slightly as you've transfered the weight; you've pivoted on the ball of your foot, and then, as part of terminating the pivot, you have to lower your foot down so your heel touches the ground again, at the same time moving your weight back from the ball of the foot towards your heel. And virtually every time I've done this so I ended up in less than perfect balance, I've failed to move my weight back along the straight line connecting the center of the ball of my foot to my heel. To the extent that I've in effect misjudged the shortest path connecting these two points, I've been off balance—a very small deviation is something I can recover from in one way or another, but if the difference in angle between that line on the one hand and the path my body weight is traveling is off by very much, I will be seriously out of balance (body weight either too much to the outside edge of the foot or toomuch to the inside) at the the end and will lack all stability in my final position.

The more I try to be guided by an awareness of where the heel of my turning foot `is' in carrying out the movement, the better my %age in nailing the pivot correctly and setting myself up for the extension phase. And since, as I've observed, if I'm not in perfect balance at the end of the pivot I have no chance of executing either kick, especially a side kick, where I can hold my leg in the fully extended position at least parallel to the ground, or higher, it's crucial for that exercise that the pivot be carried out flawlessly. The more one focuses one's awareness of body sensation on that transfer of weight downward and back to the center of the heel along the shortest line, the more likely it is one will end up in a secure position for the extension, at any speed one like, that can be frozen at the end and mainted in comfortable balance (though that also depends on the accuracy of the compensating tilt in the upper body, which is a different story entirely!)

I'm going to experiment further with this exercise during my classes and see if it will help my students develop better form in their more comlex basic kicks. Of all the things which they have trouble with, learning the turning and side kicks in perfect form is the hardest for them, I've found. Some of that is that they aren't visualizing the kicks, and the differences between them, clearly, but some of it is this question of developing balancing skills...