physical handicaps

[tshadowchaser]

If a person has had the ran of Black Belt and suffers an accident, which leaves them partly parilised ,due to subsequebt strokes, should they be restricted in how much farther they are ranked/
Let me put in some other points:
1> the person is able to do most thins buton a limited bases (spin held togearther by steel rods)
2> They can recite each Forfrom memory or they have the forms written down
3> They teach each night Mon.-Thur.
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The problems:
1>You are in a FIGHTING art
2> Your instructor has said "do not rank them above their ability to defend the rank"
3> Your instructor Knows this person has been loyal to the system for 29 years
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Dose not the knowledge and dedicaton to the art deserve something.
If you where the instructor memtioned above would you have promoted all your black belts (those above 1st at the time) and not promoted the person mentioed AND in his presence(some of them in the art less that a third his time)
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Sorry but I need help and advise on this one from some of the senior members of this form. AND yes I have more than enough rank to promote the person but he hasalways called our insructor his instructor and realy only wants promotion from the source of our knowledge
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Don't mean to air my laundry but I need advise
Shadow:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sorry for any misspellings this one is a lttle personal
Shadow

 

[Rob_Broad]

Saying the person can only be ranked up the level they can defend sounds a little silly. does the system take rank away from seniors who have become too old to defend their rank. As long as the person has the ability to instruct others in the required knowledge why not let them keep advancing. It is not the persons handicap that is stopping them from advancing in rank it is the senior instructors handicap in the way they are thinking about the situation.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Thanks Rob-Broad,
Thats kinda my thoughts also but I really want to here what otherpeople think.
Don't know if anyone out there has ever been in this situation befor.
I,ve pretty well made up my mind what i'm going to do. My thinking is "who is going to challange the rank? They have to go through me first." anyone outside the system dosen't matter unless they come into the school then they once again are mine.
If my instructor didn'twant to do the promotion thats his buiness. I wish he had becuse it has caused a mental riff both with the student and myslef.
:soapbox: I know i'msopeboxing again Like I said this one is close to home
Shadow
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Would still like thoughts from others Thank you

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Thanks Rob-Broad,
Thats kinda my thoughts also but I really want to here what otherpeople think.
Don't know if anyone out there has ever been in this situation befor.
I,ve pretty well made up my mind what i'm going to do. My thinking is "who is going to challange the rank? They have to go through me first." anyone outside the system dosen't matter unless they come into the school then they once again are mine.
If my instructor didn'twant to do the promotion thats his buiness. I wish he had becuse it has caused a mental riff both with the student and myslef.
:soapbox: I know i'msopeboxing again Like I said this one is close to home
Shadow
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Would still like thoughts from others Thank you

I would just write a letter to my teacher concerning the students qualifications and describe why i'am promoting him to the next level. I would also give him a list of the student's qualifications for my decision. You could at least get some feedback on why the teacher decided not to promote or the letter could change his mind altogether. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[tshadowchaser]

The letter is a no go.
We where all at a tournament a couple of weeks ago when this across the board promotion , with one exception happened.
Like it says above His words where " don't promote him above what he can defend. Don't get him killed"
He damn well knows the qualifacations we go up to his place often enough.
I understand in the old days you defended your rank, I was brought up in that world(so was the student, he has studied 3 months longer in the art than I have) It just hurts to see him slighted by someone we both look up to so much

And yes everyone was promoted when he was present We where walking in togeather(all the black belts) when we where told our new rank.
Shadow

 

[arnisador]

It's very common for promotions above 5th degree to be based on service to the art and/or time in grade more than physical prowess. In a case like the one you discuss I'd be sorely tempted to apply that philosophy whatever the dan rank. Perhaps it would suffice to a.) slow down his rate of promotion by a year or two compared to his peers, and b.) encourage him to engage in additional service to the art somehow?

Is your instructor's assent required in your system or merely desireable?

(As an aside, moderators can edit posst after the one hour restriction; everyone should feel free to PM a moderator if they require that typos be corrected or something similar.)

 

[Shinzu]

i agree that he should be promoted also. i have not had any experience dealing with ths sort of thing, but i know the right thing do do.

 

[Cthulhu]

I think the fact that this person still wants to train and teach after such a debilitating injury is justification enough. Would your instructor do the same? Can anyone imagine the constant pain this person must be in...even without physical training?

I know you and this student look up to your instructor, but he seems far too close-minded for my liking.

Ultimately, you must do what you think is right...not your instructor or the people on this board.

Cthulhu

 

[Drunken Master]

I can see both sides of this moral dilema.

One side is essentially saying if the student can perform the moves and demonstrate his ability to perform the grading requirements then he can pass.

The other side is saying should we not award the student because of his dedication and service to the art.

To throw something else into the pot, it is still possible to people, even with disabilities to defend themselves albeit in a different way to that of an able bodied person.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Drunken Master

I can see both sides of this moral dilema.

One side is essentially saying if the student can perform the moves and demonstrate his ability to perform the grading requirements then he can pass.

The other side is saying should we not award the student because of his dedication and service to the art.

To throw something else into the pot, it is still possible to people, even with disabilities to defend themselves albeit in a different way to that of an able bodied person.

Several years ago, a blind man who I believe had some martial arts training (before or after he lost his vision, I don't know) threw a person who was trying to mug him. If I remember correctly, the mugger ended up landing on his head and breaking his neck, eventually dying.

So it is possible for a person with disabilities to effectively defend themselves. At least in this situation.

Cthulhu

 

[Drunken Master]

So there is a practical application to Aikido.
:rofl:
Please note position of tongue firmly in cheek.

 

[Chi Fire]

I know tshadowchaser and the other person (the student). I'm not sure why Shadow has not just come out and told everyone who the person is.I have not seen Shadow in a while but I belive he is about third in rank to inherit the title of head of system (if death or whatever took those befor away).
Shadow you have a delima knowing you and your instructor. Next time you see him ask him directly to promot Phil. If he wants to put a 5-10 year restriction on the next grade in rank so be it.
Oh what Shadow has not said is : the student (Phil) is his son. I see his son's net name listed in the members list so I'll say no more.
Shadow my best to you and the family
Chi Fire

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Several years ago, a blind man who I believe had some martial arts training (before or after he lost his vision, I don't know) threw a person who was trying to mug him. If I remember correctly, the mugger ended up landing on his head and breaking his neck, eventually dying.

If memory serves this was a judoka in Philadelphia. He felt bad about the man dying--he hadn't intended it as a lethal technique.

I'd wager that that was about all the sympathy that mugger recieved.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

i havent been around as long as most of the guys here but i do run a school and do know whats right and whats wrong... and anyone who has dedicated 29 years of their life to the arts and has come back from a potentially life threatening accident and continues to train and learn and teach deserves to be promoted... im sorry but i dont know of too many schools going around and calling out other instructors or anything like that so being able to defend his rank should not be a question the only question should be can he and has he met the qualifications for the rank if he has then promote him... this person has proven his loyalty and dedication to the arts and deserves the rank...

 

[VampyrSoul2000]

Okay, to let you all know, I am T-Shadow's oldest son and the one he is talking about.
I know that ranks and promotions shouldn't mean much or I should really care, but I just am crankie about always being passed up or forgotten when things like promotions come around.
It's hard for me when I know how to do the move correctly, yet the body won't co-opperate with me. I hate not being able to do something correctly.
When we go to our instructors, I give everything I have to exercises, self-defense, and forms. More so then I see some of the others. I don't give up and I will be damned if I will quit on anything.
Most of the time they have to force me off the floor. I go through the pain until I can not stand up anymore.
I just would like them to show that they know I have been there that long (29 years this year) and that I am one of the oldest remaining members.
I never asked to be crippled and I never asked for them to baby me as much as they do. I understand their concerns, but the local yahoo on the street won't care as much.
All I know is that I know my stuff, and that I know how things are supposed to be and if something is wrong I know how to correct it. What more is there?

VampyrSoul:soapbox:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sorry son didn't realise yiou paid that much attention to the forum. Didn't intend to upset you or put you in the lime light.
Chi Fire Long time friend miss hearing from you write once ina while or at least post.
To the question can I promote YES, I have more than enough rank to do that. It's just that we both look to our instructor to promote those in the black belt ranks. If we lived futher away I would not hesitate to give the deserved promotion. But we are close (about 2and 1/2 hours away) and we do see him often. He has always been the one to promote unless distances where very great.
I undersrand that some out there may not understand our holding to Older Ways of doing things. Times change but some things stay the same to keep tradition alive. we do not give honorary rank, you have it or you don't .
I think my friend chiFire may have the solution if I can get out of work early enough on of these days to make the trip.
S i'm still open to suggestions from those of you out there.
Didn't intend to air our problems but really was looking for thoughtful insite
Thanks
shadow:asian:

PS to those who have replied via e-mail or PM thank you very much

 

[alan libby]

Looking at the posting- about promotion- we donot know or see the hole story - I know shadow and the gentleman he is talking about . Both very good martial artist and traditionalist.

And that is the problem to fact the instructor is also a very honorable person and he him self is up holding the days of tradition in full respect to his master or instructor.
The style is very traditional and has good hard standards that many hold great respect for . so maybe that is why this is so hard to answer or find peace in .
my 2 cents is that maybe the rank could be an honorary in being that this person has great knowlage in the arts and good skills ect , in full respect alan /kasd

 

[Shotochem]

Anyone who comes back from that kind of injury deserves respect. Vampy, you have honor and are a fine example of what the MAs are. You are not complaining or giving up you are an inspiration to others by continuing to train, and that is the true spirit of a martial artist.

Rank does not matter after 29 years, especially if is to be given from one such as you described. Perhaps the student no longer needs his master or his ranking. You have nothing to prove to anyone you already have.

:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

 

[Cthulhu]

Here's a thought...has Vamp trained students of his own, or assisted in teaching others? If his students, or the students he assists, can perform just as well as other students, that's another point you can use in your case for promotion.

Again, I know you guys respect him and all, but minds, like doors, work best when open. I think this instructor is a tad inflexible.

Cthulhu