Perspective.

[Martial D]

An interesting interview with the Chinese mma guy that made up one half of the now infamous mma vs Tai Chi video. The man has a well grounded take on the state of CMA and the politics behind it. Thoughts?
(Please don't waste everyone's time by commenting without first watching the video.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't watch the entire interview - just the first few minutes. His description of the events isn't surprising. Anytime anyone claims something extraordinary (like escaping a RNC with a simple push - gee, why didn't all those MMA guys think of that?), that is a red flag for me. Any extraordinary claims of "we can do what nobody else can" lead me to a bias that they are practicing something unrealistically. Seriously, any always/never/nobody claims need serious evidence. For example, the initial RNC claim (that it always wins). With very few exceptions, if a RNC is properly applied, there's really not much anyone can do about it, unless their opponent makes a mistake. It's an extraordinary claim, with plenty of support behind it - and not a claim of "we can do what nobody else can".

 

[Headhunter]

Oh blimey does this really need bringing up again

 

[Martial D]

Most of the interesting stuff is in the middle-end of the video, but I found the whole thing quite thought provoking. A peek into Chinese martial arts culture from a perspective outside the party line.

 

[jobo]

the main revelation was the fight game is fixed, which it is all over the world, either because of money or national pride, even the Olympics have had some very strange decisions.

possibly the biggest deception of cma is that old weak men can fight young fit men, because of their skill set,

biology says you are at your peak about 28 to so you can,stretch this to say 35 or so. But putting ageing grand masters in with you fit fighters is likely to only end one way

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the main revelation was the fight game is fixed, which it is all over the world, either because of money or national pride, even the Olympics have had some very strange decisions.

possibly the biggest deception of cma is that old weak men can fight young fit men, because of their skill set,

biology says you are at your peak about 28 to so you can,stretch this to say 35 or so. But putting ageing grand masters in with you fit fighters is likely to only end one way

Agreed. An oldish, fit, very skilled (and experienced) guy can probably do okay against a young, somewhat fit, far less skilled (and experienced) guy. Change any of those variables by much, and we're into the realm of extraordinary claims.

 

[Balrog]

FWIW....my perspective is that it's mma. We can just stop the discussion right there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. An oldish, fit, very skilled (and experienced) guy can probably do okay against a young, somewhat fit, far less skilled (and experienced) guy. Change any of those variables by much, and we're into the realm of extraordinary claims.

Not really. We have all probably seen videos of old men hold their ground against a younger and stronger opponent.

I think we it only appears to be "extraordinary" because we have an assumption of what "old" is and "how we are supposed to be" when when we are old. Because of many people become "old." For example, "I'm too old to do martial arts"

There is an assumption that being old means we shouldn't expect to move like this

What I've been noticing lately is that it seems that those who came 10 years before me are still making an effort to not fit the "old stereo type" we even see it in the movies where many of the old guys play tough guy roles. While those guys are acting there are some who are keeping in shape for real. If the "wheels are still on, then these guys and gals keep rolling."

 

[JowGaWolf]

possibly the biggest deception of cma is that old weak men can fight young fit men, because of their skill set,

This is not a CMA deception. I don't know anyone who does CMA, who believes this. You'll often here CMA students comment how strong an old man is and that usually because the old man hit them or grabbed them. As a matter of fact CMA, especially traditional CMA is really big on conditioning and strength building.

The only thing that deceptive about some CMA is that there are people out there who fake it and make it something mystical.

 

[jobo]

This is not a CMA deception. I don't know anyone who does CMA, who believes this. You'll often here CMA students comment how strong an old man is and that usually because the old man hit them or grabbed them. As a matter of fact CMA, especially traditional CMA is really big on conditioning and strength building.

The only thing that deceptive about some CMA is that there are people out there who fake it and make it something mystical.

well clearly the old gimmer that fought the mma guy that the topic of this thread thought it, and as it caused surprise in China that another billion or so people that believed the old guy stood a chance against a much younger and fitter guy.

nb that's a lot more than one

 

[Martial D]

well clearly the old gimmer that fought the mma guy that the topic of this thread thought it, and as it caused surprise in China that another billion or so people that believed the old guy stood a chance against a much younger and fitter guy.

nb that's a lot more than one

The 'old guy' is 42, while the 'younger fitter guy' is 38.(which you would know if you watched the video)

I dunno how much of a difference that is going to make.

 

[JowGaWolf]

well clearly the old gimmer that fought the mma guy that the topic of this thread thought it, and as it caused surprise in China that another billion or so people that believed the old guy stood a chance against a much younger and fitter guy.

nb that's a lot more than one

And you will also notice that many of the CMA people who are getting embarrassed are the same people who make CMA a mystical thing. Especially this guy who said after the fight that he couldn't use real techniques because those techniques were too dangerous and one of the techniques would have killed the guy 2 days later. He says this even though there are real Tai Chi fighters who fight with real Tai Chi. Even the MMA fighter acknowledged those guys. His beef was with Tai Chi Masters who make Tai Chi something mystical.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The 'old guy' is 42, while the 'younger fitter guy' is 38.(which you would know if you watched the video)

I dunno how much of a difference that is going to make.

Not any in terms of age having an effect.

 

[Martial D]

Not any in terms of age having an effect.

I'm 40 and I think I could take my 36 year old self. I know more now.

 

[jobo]

The 'old guy' is 42, while the 'younger fitter guy' is 38.(which you would know if you watched the video)

I dunno how much of a difference that is going to make.

give over he is 60 if he is a day. He must have added telling lies about about his age to his other chi ball lies, either that or tai chi isnt very good for his health, if he is only 42 he looks like he has spent 10 years in a salt mine

 

[Headhunter]

At the end of the day in a 1 v 1 mma fight an mma guy will beat a pure tai chi guy. But tai chi is still a fantastic martial art that has many benefits. When I was at school I had a teacher who was overweight and he had a heart attack so he took up tai chi and he ended up losing 5 stone from it and is now extremely healthy so it absolutely has benefits...people need to realise not everything is about fighting, there's way more important things to worry about than who can beat who in a fist fight

 

[jobo]

At the end of the day in a 1 v 1 mma fight an mma guy will beat a pure tai chi guy. But tai chi is still a fantastic martial art that has many benefits. When I was at school I had a teacher who was overweight and he had a heart attack so he took up tai chi and he ended up losing 5 stone from it and is now extremely healthy so it absolutely has benefits...people need to realise not everything is about fighting, there's way more important things to worry about than who can beat who in a fist fight

well that's possibly so, but he threw just one wOne punch and he fell over, considering he is a grand master of tai chi fighting that's a really poor show.even against an mma guy.

some people get really picky about the definition of martial, bit even at its most relaxed, tai chi for health as you outline above is not a ma, its a sort of stand up yoga

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. We have all probably seen videos of old men hold their ground against a younger and stronger opponent.

I think we it only appears to be "extraordinary" because we have an assumption of what "old" is and "how we are supposed to be" when when we are old. Because of many people become "old." For example, "I'm too old to do martial arts"

There is an assumption that being old means we shouldn't expect to move like this

What I've been noticing lately is that it seems that those who came 10 years before me are still making an effort to not fit the "old stereo type" we even see it in the movies where many of the old guys play tough guy roles. While those guys are acting there are some who are keeping in shape for real. If the "wheels are still on, then these guys and gals keep rolling."

None of that is counter to what I said. If the younger guy is equally skilled and quite fit, it's extremely unlikely the older guy will be able to stand to him. There will be exceptions, and we can't let those mislead us. Very few of us will have the genetics to maintain high physical activity (like hard sparring) into our 80's.

A "reasonably fit" 30-year-old is much stronger and faster (on objective measures) than a "reasonably fit" 60-year-old with similar genetics. Skill is what makes a difference that can offset some (possibly all) of that. Now, if the 60-year-old is very fit, or has a lot more experience, or was much stronger at 30, etc., then we have an exception.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At the end of the day in a 1 v 1 mma fight an mma guy will beat a pure tai chi guy.

Not true. I can see why someone would think that if, all a person knows about tai chi is within the video of the self proclaimed tai ch master and the mma fighter.

Here are some other perspectives on Tai Chi

There is too much mystical preaching when it comes to CMAs. People are always talking about zen and health and then get in trouble when they try to fight. Well News Flash!! That person spent 12 years training Tai Chi for zen and health and not self defense. We fight the way we train. Just because I do a fitness boxing, it doesn't mean I can actually fight using boxing skills.. Fitness Tai Chi does not mean you can fight using Tai Chi. Now if the person has trained 12 years to fight using Tai Chi then he's going to know how to fight with it, but only because that's the focus of his training. This is the same with every fighting system out there.

 

[jobo]

None of that is counter to what I said. If the younger guy is equally skilled and quite fit, it's extremely unlikely the older guy will be able to stand to him. There will be exceptions, and we can't let those mislead us. Very few of us will have the genetics to maintain high physical activity (like hard sparring) into our 80's.

A "reasonably fit" 30-year-old is much stronger and faster (on objective measures) than a "reasonably fit" 60-year-old with similar genetics. Skill is what makes a difference that can offset some (possibly all) of that. Now, if the 60-year-old is very fit, or has a lot more experience, or was much stronger at 30, etc., then we have an exception.

agree, when the subject of age comes up, people post up vids of remarkable people to show it doesn't matter, but they are just that,remarkable ,there probably a good few around but they make up a very small% of that age group. You can't determine from that that its possible for all people of that age to do the same .
I like to think I fall into the remarkable category, but I might just be deluding myself, its what middle aged men are prone to do. I am the fittest 50 odd year old I know and I know a good few, but I can't just take pride in that as its to a large part genetic,and that's just luck