Permanent injury from training?

[KydeX]

Hi.

I have been training in Bujinkan for almost three years now. We go at it pretty hard sometimes. Sometimes because me and my uke has agreed on it, and sometimes by accident. Also, our main instructor can be really tough sometimes when he demonstrates new stuff.

I especially feel this on elbow locks. At the end of a session of using mostly elbow locks, it really hurts. Sometimes I feel it for several days afterwards.

Could this be damaging to the joints in any way in the long term?

 

[bluewaveschool]

I'm not a doctor, but I'd say.... ask a doctor.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Could this be damaging to the joints in any way in the long term?

I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice.

However, in my opinion, life is damaging to the joints in the long term. Muscle is designed to be torn down and rebuilt by the body; the more you use it, the stronger it gets. Joints are made up of bone, cartilage, tendons, and so on, and some of those are friction points that do not self-repair, nor become stronger with use or abuse. Some parts of the body are not made tougher by intentionally damaging them. If I had to guess, I would say that forcing joints to overextend would be one of those things that doesn't make a person stronger, better, or more flexible by doing it. Not talking about being able to do the splits, but like you said, bending elbows backwards.

From looking at the medical issues that profession athletes suffer over the course of their careers, many of which seem to give them trouble later in life, I would say you are right to be concerned.

Caution is advised. Consult your doctor. Listen to your body.

I have had some injuries in my life that still cause me problems, decades later; that means at my age, I do not think they will ever truly heal. None were related to training martial arts, but they happened anyway.

 

[KydeX]

Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.

I was more interested in opinions and personal experience. Since I am not a kid anymore, the body is not as flexible as it used to be

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.

I was more interested in opinions and personal experience. Since I am not a kid anymore, the body is not as flexible as it used to be

Being older, I would say that muscular injuries I have suffered while training take a long time to heal. In a few cases, it appears that I have done myself a long-lasting mischief. I don't know what else to say. Some things, when borked, stay borked. Your mileage may vary.

 

[James Kovacich]

To add to what Bill has said. As we get older, what we did when we were younger, which for me was martial arts and weight training, can and will affect our bodies. I think people may believe that training is all positive. But there are negative affects directly related to the way we train. I've always pushed myself really hard physically. In 2004 while FMA stick sparring, I tore my right bicep (I'm right handed). Although I believe it happened do to my overall training for many many years, I also think that I didn't have enough rest time in between weight training and MA training, in this case the extreme movements full speed stick sparring. I live with my permanent injury and thinking back at "what ifs" won't help. It is to late.

Listen to your body. And understand that some techniques can be practiced more extreme than others. Tweaking the joints in my opinion is not a good thing. That's the whole point of "tapping out" when grappling.



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[KydeX]

Well, we do use the tapout system, but not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this. The idea is to "toughen" us and to keep the training more realistic. Also, some techniques are worse than others, like elbow throws. Those are hard to tap out of... I don't have a problem in getting a beating and seeing that the techniques work, I am just speculating that it might not always be healthy. And I guess that's what you guys think too.

I'm probably not gonna stop though since it's fun training, but I'll try to be careful.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well, we do use the tapout system, but not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this. The idea is to "toughen" us and to keep the training more realistic. Also, some techniques are worse than others, like elbow throws. Those are hard to tap out of... I don't have a problem in getting a beating and seeing that the techniques work, I am just speculating that it might not always be healthy. And I guess that's what you guys think too.

I'm probably not gonna stop though since it's fun training, but I'll try to be careful.

Sounds like you have some choices to make. Hopefully your choices now because it is 'fun' won't cause problems you'll wish you didn't have when get older.

I have a hip that pops out of joint from time to time; fortunately it is not painful, but it is annoying when it happens. Happened when I was 16, hot-dogging on a motorcycle and did an endo; the bike rode me for awhile.

My hip stays borked. If that prospect doesn't bother you, then go on and do as you wish.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Personally, i don't see any huge benefit of not letting go when someone taps out, unless its for a demonstration or something. It's dangerous to continue with something like that, may go too far, and after the first time it doesn't "teach" you anything you don't know (it can hurt like a b***h if someone gets a lock on you). Outside of that, I haven't had any permanent injury from over a decade of practicing, but I am only 19 so don't think it can apply to everyone

 

[gregtca]

I think you already know the answer, just look at your post , train hard but with some degree of intelligence , if it hurts and is causing you issues after a week then some thing you are doin is most likely wrong , or that which is being done to you , listen to your body

 

[KydeX]

Yeah, guess I just gotta get better at speaking out where my limits are. I haven't heard of anyone in the dojo that has had real injuries though, except for accidents, like rolling into a wall or something.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.

Really? That's odd to hear. Looking around the ER right this minute I see 3 black belts (including me) and a red belt. And that's just the staff...


If the pain resolves in a couple days, it's unlikely to be a permanent injury. However, it is also undeniable that what we do for fun has great potential for real injury. It's important to resist, since an excessively compliant partner limits your learning. Obviously, this ought to end short of permanent injury. It doesn't really sound to me (albeit this is extremely limited since I haven't actually examined you) that you have any permanent injury. Tap out and/or talk to your partners about how much pressure is to be used. Your instructor, of all people, ought to grasp the concept of not breaking students.

 

[KydeX]

I don't feel like I have a permanent injury, but I was wondering if there could be problems in the long run, training joint locks a bit hard.

With regards to my instructor, he's been doing this for more than 30 yrs, and I guess he learnt it the "hard" way himself .

 

[Cyriacus]

Question: When Your Instructor does these joint things, does He do them quickly, or slowly?
From what I know of grappling, most joint locks are applied slowly (as opposed to rapidly) for safety reasons.
Whereas, beginners tend to lock things in quickly, which is where beginners can be more dangerous than senior students. They snap it in, rather than slide it in, so to speak.

Again, I am only speaking from what I know of grappling. I do know, though, that any joint manipulation is designed to damage stuff in the event of non-compliance, or at least cause pain. Hence 'tapping out'. You dont tap out when you get sick of dealing with the pain, you tap out when the hold gets locked in tighter despite your resistance and you feel like somethings going to break in half. If you snap it in straight to that breaking point, it will probably break. Whereas if its eased into it, its less likely to. If its held in place for too long with a great deal of pressure, you will not 'toughen up', youll tear stuff. And one day, you might seriously injure something, and it might take years to heal.

If its being applied harder than your body can take, or faster than your body can deal with it, that could be causing problems, is what im suggesting?

 

[KydeX]

Good reply. To answer your question, when my instructor goes hard, he does it slowly. If he needs to do something fast, it is usually not that hard. It might be like you are saying, that he keeps pushing sometimes because we are tapping out because we just don't like the pain, and that he knows from experience that he can safely push a bit further. Guess I'll have to ask him that.

Sometimes the pain is excruciating though..

 

[Tony Dismukes]

... not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this.

This is not a good thing. If you are teaching a technique to the class and your uke taps, it can be okay to back off the technique to relieve the pressure but still maintain the position for demonstration purposes. However if the teachers or students make a habit of maintaining pressure after uke taps, someone is going to get injured sooner or later.

 

[Aiki Lee]

The purpose of tapping during training is to say "I've reached the physical limit, any more and you will injure me." causing pain in the dojo is fine and expected but injuries need to be avoided. Injuring someone to " toughen them up" is idiocy as all injuring some one does is make them weaker. It is unacceptable for a person to ignore someones tap out. That's negligence and could open up the whole school for lawsuits. Some idiot hyperextended my teachers elbow and it never healed properly. Don't let that happen to you.

 

[Steve]

The one thing that sets off some red flags for me are that your partners AND your instructor fail to stop when you tap. That's inexcusable to me. While there are some submissions and techniques that make it difficult to stop mid-roll, for a training partner or instructor to hold a submission past the tap is dangerous and unnecessary.

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the more experienced person to look out for the safety of his "partner." This means letting a submission go even if your partner doesn't tap because often an inexperienced uke doesn't know enough to know they're in danger. And it means stopping a technique even if you know that your partner wasn't in danger. In other words, there are times when someone will tap too early because they just don't understand the situation they're in or how to intelligently defend it. There are other times when someone will tap too late (or not at all) because they just don't understand the situation they're in or how to intelligently defend it. As an upper belt, senior student, instructor or just plain nice guy, it's up to you to help your partner improve. It doesn't mean unnecessarily risking their long term health and safety to try and "toughen them up."

 

[KydeX]

A lot of good replies here. Just to clarify one thing though, by "toughen up", I meant mentally, not physically. I understand that you cannot train joints to get stronger like you can with muscles

 

[Steve]

A lot of good replies here. Just to clarify one thing though, by "toughen up", I meant mentally, not physically. I understand that you cannot train joints to get stronger like you can with muscles

Understood. The way I would "toughen up" a less experienced training partner is to stop when they ask me to (ie, tap out). If they tap too early, I would still stop executing the technique. In most cases, I would just take a second and show them how to escape next time, and the next time we spar, I'd make sure I put them in a similar situation so that they would have an opportunity to work it out. I hope this makes sense.