THat's arguably true-for the first 60 years or so we just took it.
Some say we should "just take it again."
Some might say that's what we're doing right now.....
Peacekeepers 'abusing children'
- Thread starter Big Don
- Start date
THat's arguably true-for the first 60 years or so we just took it.
Some say we should "just take it again."
Some might say that's what we're doing right now.....
You miss the point totally. No they won't be shocked, they'll be pleased as punch, it gives them more propaganda to use against us.
No one is saying how "bad those mean old soldiers are" we are saying that it was a totally stupid thing to do as it makes us look as bad as them. How can we convince people we are in the right when this happens to show acts no better than our enemies? How does this advance the cause of democracy?
Backward savages eh? so exactly how does treating them as shown in the photo make us any better? How have we shown the world that we are a higher life form? If we treated our prisoners with the dignity they failed to show others then it makes us morally right. If we had fair trials, proper treatment of prisoners, treated Muslim women with respect, and showing our women act properly etc all the things they don't have or do we would be showing them morally the better way.
During the First World War it was common to say the German soldiers raped women and abused prisoners, it was a device for making the enemy seem less human therefore making them easier to hate and kill. The Germans did it to the Jews, Gypsies, Gays and others now it seems we are to do it to the Arabs. Of course there are some very bad things happening that are done by Arabs just as there are by any race or country but to demonise all Arabs is ignorant and destructive.
Put the blame fairly and squarely where it belongs, don't persecute a whole race because of the actions of a few or because you don't like them.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Isn't that basically what I said in more colorful language? The ideas are not demonstrably correct however. The UN has accomplished useful things, and US troops have engaged in terrible crimes. The reverse is also true. How could it not be, the UN and the US armed forces are both composed of human beings?
Probably. I am getting more than a little frustrated with the OP's hit-and-run tactics and consistent refusal to acknowledge contradictory information brought up by others or indeed to really engage at all. That is the tactic of a troll, not someone who is looking for a debate.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Ah yes, I remember my hazing days in Ai Felta Thi. The blood, the beatings. The dog bites. Oh, how we laughed and laughed!
WARNING: NSFW or Stomach
http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/chapter_8/index.html
Empty Hands
Senior Master
We're supposed to be better than the honor killers and child burners, remember? It shows a real poverty of decency to point to those outrageous actions and then say "Since we're not that bad, nothing is wrong with what we're doing!"
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
therein lies the problem
what you call "acting better" the enemy calls "weakness" that doesnt mean we use thier methods, but it does put things in perspective.
in perspective, the so called abuses at the prison were a kids tea party compared to what the bad guys do, so I will cut the soldiers a little slack.
Interesting thing though, the latest polls show that the surge, aside from actually WORKING had a nice side effect
the decrease in violence has shown the everyday Muslim on the street that we are in fact the good guys, and the AQ is in fact the bad guys.
By BAD GUYS, i mean the enemy, which isnt all, or even most I imagine, muslims, just the radical islamo-facists. Just to be clear.
what you call "acting better" the enemy calls "weakness" that doesnt mean we use thier methods, but it does put things in perspective.
in perspective, the so called abuses at the prison were a kids tea party compared to what the bad guys do, so I will cut the soldiers a little slack.
Interesting thing though, the latest polls show that the surge, aside from actually WORKING had a nice side effect
the decrease in violence has shown the everyday Muslim on the street that we are in fact the good guys, and the AQ is in fact the bad guys.
By BAD GUYS, i mean the enemy, which isnt all, or even most I imagine, muslims, just the radical islamo-facists. Just to be clear.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Well, they are wrong. It is not only not a weakness, it is our only real strength. Islamic terrorism will cease to be a useful weapon against us only when the support population turns against them. The day that AQ and their ilk are a bunch of fringe deadenders that no one supports or believes in will be the day we've won. Until then, no matter how many we kill, there will always be more.
Thus, any actions that cut against this goal and strengthen the support of the terrorists among their population is an action that prolongs the war and gets more Americans killed. The abuses at Guantanamo, no matter how they look in perspective to you, are such actions that improve terrorist support in their populations. As are secret prisons in Europe and the Middle East, a refusal to negotiate in good faith, and a host of other actions that have confounded our own goals. If we only lived up to our own image of ourselves, AQ not only would be vanquished now, they would have never been a serious problem in the first place.
Terrorism will not be defeated through scaring them with more and more brutal measures, the path advocated by Big Don and a host of others. Would you be such a coward that a foreign nation could crush your resistance by being increasingly brutal? Or would you fight back harder and harder every time they tried to stomp you down? Yeah, me too. Well, the Arabic world aren't cowards either.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
oh i dont want to scare them, I want to kill them.
Just the terrorists, the radical islamic fundamentalists that read that passage about "convert the infidel or kill them, where ever you find them" and take it seriously.
They say themselves that they will not stop until the have established a world wide caliphate.
It is a truism that dead terrorists dont kill people
it is also a truism that if you just shoot all the bad guys in the face, sooner or later, people stop signing up to be bad guys.
you cant negotiate with them, they dont care what you think or want, to them, you are an infidel, deserving only of death, or forced conversion
luckily, they are still a minority.BTW- if it were christians doing this crap, i would want them dead too.
I disagree with your paragraphs about how it is our own fault.
Just the terrorists, the radical islamic fundamentalists that read that passage about "convert the infidel or kill them, where ever you find them" and take it seriously.
They say themselves that they will not stop until the have established a world wide caliphate.
It is a truism that dead terrorists dont kill people
it is also a truism that if you just shoot all the bad guys in the face, sooner or later, people stop signing up to be bad guys.
you cant negotiate with them, they dont care what you think or want, to them, you are an infidel, deserving only of death, or forced conversion
luckily, they are still a minority.BTW- if it were christians doing this crap, i would want them dead too.
I disagree with your paragraphs about how it is our own fault.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Sure, but how you go about doing so will determine how many other terrorists will step in to take their place. If you "destroy the village to save the village", you will ultimately be shooting yourself in the foot. The entire society will mobilize and they will all be your enemies. I don't know, maybe that is what some people want.
No, that is absolutely not true. It is the entire point of my paragraph about cowardice. It is also a point belied by history. Brutal measures by the English against the Irish never stopped Irish terrorism. Shooting as many Palestinian rock throwers and bombers as possible has only increased their ranks, and gotten extremist groups elected as head of the government. Horrifying brutality by the Russians against the Afghanis never destroyed the Afghani will to fight. The examples continue. It is extremely difficult to convince people not to fight by killing and brutality, at least where occupations are concerned.
I never said it was our fault. Everyone is fully culpable for the acts they choose to commit, Islamic terrorists included.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
"The abuses at Guantanamo, no matter how they look in perspective to you, are such actions that improve terrorist support in their populations. As are secret prisons in Europe and the Middle East, a refusal to negotiate in good faith, and a host of other actions that have confounded our own goals. If we only lived up to our own image of ourselves, AQ not only would be vanquished now, they would have never been a serious problem in the first place."
kind of sounds like it to me............
Archangel M
Senior Master
Except now they videotape themselves doing these horrible things.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Me leaving my door unlocked creates the conditions for me to be robbed. It doesn't make the robbery my fault. Walking in a bad neighborhood at three in the morning with fifty dollar bills hanging out of my pocket creates the necessary conditions for me to be shot and killed. It doesn't make my own murder my fault. Etc etc etc, ad nauseaum.
