Panantukan

[KPM]

Does anyone want to talk Panantukan? I'd like to see a separate sub-forum for it in order to encourage its growth. Anyone else? Bob, is this a possibility? I posted some info about Panantukan in the FMA Talk forum years ago. I could repost it here to get things going. I got away from my Panantukan for awhile, but am now getting back into it. I'm a bit disillusioned with Wing Chun at the moment.

Keith

 

[tshadowchaser]

I doubt there is enough interest to warrant a sub forum. Just post under the Filipino section and see what the response is to your posts

 

[Mephisto]

I don't mind talking panantukan but I don't think it warrants its own subforum. Are there any FMA that practice panantukan as the primary skill? To my knowledge many FMA offer it as an option in the event you have to fight without a weapon. It seems like a relatively new term and is quickly becoming A fad. I've seen a lot of demos show casing panantukan but can't find any video of any panantukan in action with a resisting partner. I'd like to see more/any sparring video with panantukan it seems more like a concept but not an area that is heavily trained or well developed.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let's chat about it and why don't you start us off with what you think?

 

[Transk53]

I don't mind talking panantukan but I don't think it warrants its own subforum. Are there any FMA that practice panantukan as the primary skill? To my knowledge many FMA offer it as an option in the event you have to fight without a weapon. It seems like a relatively new term and is quickly becoming A fad. I've seen a lot of demos show casing panantukan but can't find any video of any panantukan in action with a resisting partner. I'd like to see more/any sparring video with panantukan it seems more like a concept but not an area that is heavily trained or well developed.

A bit of a sweeping statement there. From what I have experienced (though not greatly at this point) it is an integral part of JKD/Kali. Still though, perhaps where I am that is the instructors favoured curriculum. It looks all linked together to me.

 

[KPM]

Brian, my thought was that if it had its own subforum, people would be more likely to come here to talk about it, rather than it being lost in a more general forum. You know...the old "build it and they will come" approach? ;-)

Anyway, I'll try to kick some discussion off. As I see it there are basically 3 versions of the history of Panantukan that go something like this:

1. Panantukan is a historical method that goes way back in the Phillipines. It is empty hand work based upon the use of a knife, and therefore emphasizes evasiveness and lots of movement. Around the turn of the century western boxers were exposed to Panantukan and picked up on its biomechanics. This is said to be responsible for the transition from the old bare-knuckle style of boxing to what we now consider "modern" boxing. Dan Inosanto's sister wrote this up in a magazine article many years ago. But I think this version of the story is meant to make Panantukan sound more "traditional" and "respectable." I have done some research on western boxing and there are all kinds of problems and holes in this version. I don't find much at all to support it. There are plenty of good explanations of why the old "John L. Sullivan" style of boxing transitioned to the "modern" style without bringing Panantukan into it. That's not to say that some of the footwork and evasiveness that Filipino Boxers picked up from their martial arts training didn't have some influences. Ali is said to have visited an old Filipino Boxer and learned a bit of footwork.

2. Panantukan existed in the Phillipines in a general sense if not outright, and had a similar powerbase as western boxing because, again...it was based upon knife-fighting and evasiveness. As western boxing became more and more popular throughout the world, Panantukan players recognized the similarities and began to incorporate western boxing into what they were doing. This version is more plausible, but has some problems of its own. The biggest being that you just don't find much Panantukan in the Phillipines (or so I've been told). I've also been told that if you hear the term Panantukan in the Phillipines they are usual just referring to the sport of boxing.

3. What seems to me to be the most likely and the most plausible version is this: In more recent times, martial artists that had learned both FMAs and western boxing came up with a general approach that combined both and came to be called Panantukan. One of the major contributors was Lucky Lucaylucay. He and his father were both competitive boxers in Hawaii. They of course also knew FMAs. Guro Inosanto credits Lucky Lucaylucay with introducing Panantukan to his academy. I think it is likely that he was one of...if not the...key creator of the method. Another key player here was likely John Lacoste, and of course Dan Inosanto himself. Again, as I stated before, its not a big stretch. Start with a thorough grounding in western boxing, and then start adding on principles and methods from Kali empty hands...limb destructions, zoning, body manipulations, knees, elbows, etc.....and you've got modern Panantukan.

At various times individuals have said that Panantukan is not an "art", that it is just "made up" or is just a "collection of drills." Some have supported this by saying that you just don't find it being taught in the Phillipines, so it can't be legit. I think that regardless of its status in the Phillipines, it is a part of the curriculum of several of the biggest FMA academies in the US, and now has multiple videos and a book produced that cover it. This makes it legitimate here in the states. It doesn't matter to me one bit if no one is doing it in the Phillipines.

The term "Panantukan" came from the people at the Inosanto Academy. They were originally going to use the term "Suntukan" but it was felt that people would confuse this with "Shotokan." But now I see a lot of other organizations using the term "Panantukan" for their empty-hand training who have nothing to do with the Inosanto Academy. Again, this is just an indication that Panantukan is just as "legit" as any other art.

 

[KPM]

I don't mind talking panantukan but I don't think it warrants its own subforum. Are there any FMA that practice panantukan as the primary skill? To my knowledge many FMA offer it as an option in the event you have to fight without a weapon. It seems like a relatively new term and is quickly becoming A fad. I've seen a lot of demos show casing panantukan but can't find any video of any panantukan in action with a resisting partner. I'd like to see more/any sparring video with panantukan it seems more like a concept but not an area that is heavily trained or well developed.

Well, that's part of the problem. Too often Panantukan becomes lost within a large curriculum of Weapons training, JKD, boxing, Thai Boxing, etc. While its part of the curriculm of many large academies, it typically doesn't get practiced as its own "thing" that often. Although I admit that seems to be changing recently! That's why I'd like to see it promoted and emphasized more. I'm not really interesting in JKD or Thai Boxing. I want to do Panantukan as the primary thing! Ron Balicki has a great set of DVDs on Panantukan. On it he includes footage of himself sparring full contact and incorporating many of the things he teaches on the DVDs. Unfortunately, I don't think any of this footage has ever made it to youtube to share.

 

[Transk53]

Well, that's part of the problem. Too often Panantukan becomes lost within a large curriculum of Weapons training, JKD, boxing, Thai Boxing, etc. While its part of the curriculm of many large academies, it typically doesn't get practiced as its own "thing" that often. Although I admit that seems to be changing recently! That's why I'd like to see it promoted and emphasized more. I'm not really interesting in JKD or Thai Boxing. I want to do Panantukan as the primary thing! Ron Balicki has a great set of DVDs on Panantukan. On it he includes footage of himself sparring full contact and incorporating many of the things he teaches on the DVDs. Unfortunately, I don't think any of this footage has ever made it to youtube to share.

It is also very hard to find a dedicated school outside of London.

 

[Mephisto]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge KPM, your thoughts and findings seem to agree with what I've come across. Panantukan makes sense in theory and there are a few arts out there to approach the dirty boxing topic. Just because it doesnt originate in the PI doesn't make it any less of an art. It would just be nice if people were straight forward about its origins. In some cases it just may be a case of "keeping up with the jones" jkd is popular art and other FMA see what inosanto is doing and copy, or they may just have already been practicing something similiar and just borrowed the name. Kind of like Tkd schools or other schools advertising karate back in 90s.

I've heard FMA groups suggest FMA was responsible the change in boxing stance and style. My research has lead me to the conclusion was the change was due to a change in rules. from older less restrictive boxing rulesets to which allowed more standup grappling and throws to the more modern ruleset. The change in rules allowed fighters to keep a higher stance and guard because the didn't have to worry about standup grappling as much and the fight became more focused on punches. The old rulesets even allowed spiked boots to be used with regulations on spike size.

It would be cool to see a fight venue arise that more closely matched the old rulesets, allow only low line kicks below the knee, standup grappling and clinch, and elbows. Such a rulset might create a venue for panantukan to develop to a high level and specialty. Like other sports you have to create rules that prevent other arts from dominating you approach. I'm told judo has done this to keep competitions about judo rather than enable BJJ guys to come in and change the game. The Gracie's also did this when BJJ fridt gained widespread notoriety, they made a ruset that favored their style and dominated. Create a rule set that favors panantukan and it might just have a shot. Taking kicks out the equation will keep it focused on punches and boxing tactics but allowed grappling brings some dumog into the equation. The only kicks I've seen most FMA is low line attacks that are more like sweeps than kicks. Just some thoughts here, a lot of FMA shys away from sport but I think sports practitioners are able to take systems to new heights, or in some cases it can change systems for the worst. Olympic tkd produces some impressive athletes but it seems the self defense crowd and MMA crowd can't apply Olympic to other situations, it's almost too specialized.

 

[KPM]

Is anyone reading along?

Even though the western term we use is Filipino or Dirty "Boxing" which implies mostly punching, I think Panantukan is pretty complete! Of course it includes striking with fist, open hand, and elbows. It also includes the "standard" boxing defenses like the catch, cuff, cover, bob & weave etc. But it also covers the limb destructions or "guntings", joint locks and manipulations, and body manipulations and takedowns. Hubud or "energy drills" are also an important part of the curriculum. If you consider Pananjakman and Dumog as "subsets" of Panantukan, then it also includes low-line kicks and some grappling. I like to break the training up into 6 different drilling or training platforms for skill development:

1. Jab entry drills
2. Catch and return drills
3. Focus mitt drills
4. Heavy bag drills
5. Hubud
6. Progressive Sparring

Anyone else have an approach to Panantukan to share?

 

[Transk53]

Good luck with it. Hubud?

 

[KPM]

Hubud is the FMA version of Wing Chun Chi Sau, or JKD trapping hands. It is a sensitivity/reaction/flow drill with many variations and spin offs. "Hubud" means to "undress" or "untie." The idea that is if your arms get tied up, you get them untied! Or if someone puts up an obstacle, you get rid of it so you can continue to punch or grapple them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes I agree with that KPM but... Hubud is more about entering than anything else. It is in the end an entering method.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Never heard the term Panantukan until recently and have been doing Filipino arts for over 40 years. I really think it is a modern term that was made to to promote the boxing (read as open handed) aspect of an art.
As far as the open handed aspect of the arts goes I learned open handed before weapons in the system I studied for 30 years. I know that is not what is taught in most FMA's .
Anyone can make a video and promote an art and make money off the video but that in and of itself dose not mean that the art has been around a long time .
I am not saying that Panantukan is not legit at this time but I am sure that most of the arts that come under the FMA heading have weaponless techniques in them. The fact that a few people now emphasis the open handed aspect first or completely is simply a part of growth within the arts.
I do like hearing how some folks are approaching this aspect of the FMA's

 

[Transk53]

Hubud is the FMA version of Wing Chun Chi Sau, or JKD trapping hands. It is a sensitivity/reaction/flow drill with many variations and spin offs. "Hubud" means to "undress" or "untie." The idea that is if your arms get tied up, you get them untied! Or if someone puts up an obstacle, you get rid of it so you can continue to punch or grapple them.

Yes I agree with that KPM but... Hubud is more about entering than anything else. It is in the end an entering method.

Well not sure about the technical specifics here, IE Brian and the emboldened text, but Googled it and it is very interesting stuff I must say.

 

[KPM]

Never heard the term Panantukan until recently and have been doing Filipino arts for over 40 years. I really think it is a modern term that was made to to promote the boxing (read as open handed) aspect of an art.

---Yes. See post #6, point #3 above. You aren't the only one to say this. This is why of the 3 historical theories, I favor the third one.

I am not saying that Panantukan is not legit at this time but I am sure that most of the arts that come under the FMA heading have weaponless techniques in them.

---I agree. Some well-developed. But some rather rudimentary. Kind of a ...."what are you going to do if you lose your weapon?" approach rather than making it a primary approach.

The fact that a few people now emphasis the open handed aspect first or completely is simply a part of growth within the arts.

---Again I agree. And even though the term "Panantukan" really came out of the Inosanto Academy, it seems in recent years that some FMA systems not associated with the Inosanto academy at all have "fleshed out" their empty hand portion and adopted the term as well.

---Brian: good point about being an Entry method!

 

[Dylan9d]

Here in Holland its not even called Panantukan but they call it Pangamot here.

I have seen the term here and there on the internet but in Holland they use others terms for the "dirty boxing".

 

[tshadowchaser]

as an aside and not to derail the thread
I fist heard the term dirty boxing back in the 60's or early 70's and it did not apply to Filipino martial arts back then but to Chinese boxing

I still would like to here more about the techniques that make up Panantukun and what makes it different from other open handed martial arts

 

[geezer]

In my group we call the empty hands "Cadena de Mano" or just Filipino Boxing after my first instructor Rene Latosa who got his Cadena de Mano from Max Sarmiento and then boxed competitively for the USAF.

Although Rene's stuff has a lot of Western Boxing in it, what he taught was always more about concepts (like power, speed, focus, transition or adaptation, and balance) than being about techniques. So my hands still show a lot of WC influence, while others in our group show other influences.

 

[KPM]

I still would like to here more about the techniques that make up Panantukun and what makes it different from other open handed martial arts

I don't know what your empty-hand method is like. But I would guess that if you pictured what you do, but done from a modern boxing mechanic and power base, it would be pretty close! ;-) I think this modern boxing way of moving is what makes the Panantukan from the Inosanto Academy different. But this is likely changing. I saw a "Panantukan" video from a Doce Pares Escrima group the other day and they were including modern boxing combos on the focus mitts.

Onto a modern boxing base with the typical punches, covers, cuffs, etc......add limb destructions (guntings), joint locks, body manipulations, sweeps, low-line kicks (Pananjakman), Hubud training, etc. and you've got Panantukan.