Pain compliance techniques - yay or nay?

[jobo]

The training is wrong, that's what's wrong.

I used to work with violent teenagers and young adults, and I had to pin some of them down and restrain them without weapons (which eventually led me to quit because I was tired of being a glorified bouncer when I'm supposed to be teaching). Some of those individuals were a lot bigger than myself. I never had any problem doing it, and I never had to kick, punch, or beat them with batons (I probably would have lost my job if I had).

There's many pins and holds you can use. Some of the holds police use (like the knee on the neck) is extreme and unnecessary.

im not disagreeing, its clearly wrong, very very wrong, but even then half a,dozen shouldnt have much trouble containing one, if they are trained in working as a team, even if what they are doing isnt particularly advanced,,


you really dont need sticks, if you seriously out number them, there is a tendabcy to smash people with sticks and then think what to do, when they still fight back or die

its the whole pain compliance thing, your just not going to stop someone having a psychotic episode hitting them with a,stick unless you knock them out cold or break a leg, which will at least slow them down a bit

 

[oftheherd11]

Sorry, my computer doesn't seem to be working well with MT lately. So if my reply made it into this thread it is hiding itself from me.

 

[dvcochran]

Sorry for confusion, I am a policing student — it was a prisoner we were fighting. He tested negative for all the drugs they test for - that is cocaine, classical psychedelics, amphetamines, opiates, and some research chemicals like bath salts. Cannabis isn't tested for here.

With the criminal background, is there any history of mental issues? I would think there was some kind of extenuating circumstance(s).
We had a man who was pretty large. I would say about 6'3" & 250lbs. A very intelligent man who was rather prim and proper. Until he got off of his meds. Then he was a real handful. Much like the person you describe, he was not going to be forced into compliance. I saw him hit work through the big fish line taser several times. His hand was broken once with a pr24 while trying to subdue him. Asphyxiation was the most humane way to deal with him. And that was a tall chore.

Pain compliance works but it cannot be indefinite. Get them in position, cuff 'em and move on. This is a prime example of where officers must work together. Compliance and confinement should be going on at the same time.

 

[dvcochran]

We're trained in a 3 stage model, which is the national policing guideline here. It's contain, restrain, remove. In that first step, your either chasing/wrestling someone who's running or fighting with someone who's intent on causing harm until they can be safely restrained. When the situation is contained even if there's still severe resistance, we're taught to stop using injuring force and move to safe restraints. Safe restraints generally means the suspect is on their back, someone lays across the legs, someone lays across each arm, pressure isn't then applied to the chest or head unless to prevent self injury. Then removal is pretty self explanatory.

How I've thought of it is physiological controls are more important in the early phase "contain" step, pain compliance is more applicable in transitioning to restrain. It's always interesting to see how different people are taught though and hear these things.

I'm also glad I'm not doing this in America. Things are so different over there with the litigation. Our system isn't perfect either though given there's people fighting police multiple times in one week and never seeing prison - but it's better than worried about having your life ruined over justified reasonable force that doesn't look pretty.

So you are saying there are at least 3 officers at every stage of every encounter? Seems very unrealistic. Downright dangerous for officers to think this is always going to be the case.

 

[dvcochran]

So you pepper sprayed, kick/punched, beat a man with sticks, and hyperextend his arm when you could have just choked him from the beginning?

This stuff, along with the George Floyd incident tells me that law enforcement needs some better training. Some Gracie JJ training would help a lot IMO.

Respectfully, it is easy to throw that lob shot from the sidelines. There are so many things in flux in some takedown situations. I cannot imagine what is going through the minds of officers these days. Everyone has a camera and you Are going to be on video.
Back in my LEO days I was known for mounting a rear choke and riding them down. How do think that would go over on the 6:00 news now a days?

 

[Kemposhot]

The training is wrong, that's what's wrong.

I used to work with violent teenagers and young adults, and I had to pin some of them down and restrain them without weapons (which eventually led me to quit because I was tired of being a glorified bouncer when I'm supposed to be teaching). Some of those individuals were a lot bigger than myself. I never had any problem doing it, and I never had to kick, punch, or beat them with batons (I probably would have lost my job if I had).

There's many pins and holds you can use. Some of the holds police use (like the knee on the neck) is extreme and unnecessary.

The issue is that in some places (like New York City) they’ve now made any accidental or intentional pressure on the upper torso or neck area a misdemeanor for cops to use. In their infinite wisdom they’re pretty much telling them either use batons, punch kick etc or let the criminal escape and try and get them another day.

This is what happens when you have sub par training for years mixed with politicians whom have no idea the realities of physical altercations outside what they see on TV.

 

[drop bear]

Respectfully, it is easy to throw that lob shot from the sidelines. There are so many things in flux in some takedown situations. I cannot imagine what is going through the minds of officers these days. Everyone has a camera and you Are going to be on video.
Back in my LEO days I was known for mounting a rear choke and riding them down. How do think that would go over on the 6:00 news now a days?

I have been throwing that lob for about 10 years. The training is generally garbage. And needs to be good.

I did a bunch of dumb stuff to guys because I didn't know any better.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

The issue is that in some places (like New York City) they’ve now made any accidental or intentional pressure on the upper torso or neck area a misdemeanor for cops to use. In their infinite wisdom they’re pretty much telling them either use batons, punch kick etc or let the criminal escape and try and get them another day.

This is what happens when you have sub par training for years mixed with politicians whom have no idea the realities of physical altercations outside what they see on TV.

Agreed on all counts... It's almost like we talk about this a lot or something???

A couple of more thoughts... When I teach self-defense at the Y, I usually teach that more lethal and destructive methods are more idiot-proof. Anyone who has done Aikido or Jiu Jitsu knows it's easier to screw up a joint lock than it is to screw up breaking a nose, or cutting off the air supply. I also teach that more lethal/destructive techniques depend less on your opponent... An opponent who is on drugged, or extremely tough/disciplined (e.g. green beret/SEAL), or just really, REALLY wants you dead, may consider a broken wrist a fair price to pay for getting a good hit on you. By contrast, I am not aware of any physical or mental conditioning technique that can stop you from quickly losing combat effectiveness if you can't breathe.

All that is to say, pain compliance techniques are great to have in your toolbox, but I would always, ALWAYS be ready to back them up with something more destructive to structure, just in case the bad guy doesn't get the message.

 

[Hanzou]

Respectfully, it is easy to throw that lob shot from the sidelines. There are so many things in flux in some takedown situations. I cannot imagine what is going through the minds of officers these days. Everyone has a camera and you Are going to be on video.
Back in my LEO days I was known for mounting a rear choke and riding them down. How do think that would go over on the 6:00 news now a days?

You’re right, I can easily sit on the sidelines and point out that there’s no need to put your knee on someone’s neck when they’re cuffed on their chest with 2 other men sitting on their back. There’s multiple ways to immobilize even an uncuffed person from that position without going to that level.

 

[jobo]

Agreed on all counts... It's almost like we talk about this a lot or something???

A couple of more thoughts... When I teach self-defense at the Y, I usually teach that more lethal and destructive methods are more idiot-proof. Anyone who has done Aikido or Jiu Jitsu knows it's easier to screw up a joint lock than it is to screw up breaking a nose, or cutting off the air supply. I also teach that more lethal/destructive techniques depend less on your opponent... An opponent who is on drugged, or extremely tough/disciplined (e.g. green beret/SEAL), or just really, REALLY wants you dead, may consider a broken wrist a fair price to pay for getting a good hit on you. By contrast, I am not aware of any physical or mental conditioning technique that can stop you from quickly losing combat effectiveness if you can't breathe.

All that is to say, pain compliance techniques are great to have in your toolbox, but I would always, ALWAYS be ready to back them up with something more destructive to structure, just in case the bad guy doesn't get the message.

i think your over stating the rarity of tough people, i dont think its limited to special forces or those on drugs, i think from my exsperiance that people who will keep comming at you through any amount of pain are fairly common.

as such the whole pain compliance thing is very problematic, partixularly all the presure point nonsence, as are a number of the joint locks etal if there are somewhat stronger than you and can simply straighten their wrist

, the whole lot is drasticaly in need of pressure testing before being sold to the public as effective

but your correct that destructive technques are far more reliable, but they need to be destructive, breaking a nose or a jaw or a wrist, may only serve to annoy them, ive seen people take a good kicking of a group, get off the floor and attack with a brick, you actually have to be able to stop them

 

[drop bear]

im not disagreeing, its clearly wrong, very very wrong, but even then half a,dozen shouldnt have much trouble containing one, if they are trained in working as a team, even if what they are doing isnt particularly advanced,,


you really dont need sticks, if you seriously out number them, there is a tendabcy to smash people with sticks and then think what to do, when they still fight back or die

its the whole pain compliance thing, your just not going to stop someone having a psychotic episode hitting them with a,stick unless you knock them out cold or break a leg, which will at least slow them down a bit

Quite often what happens is people run out of ideas and start doing silly stuff because they are loosing control of the situation.

This is partially the officer. Partially the training and partially the system they are using. So rocking up alone and having to fight a guy for example.

Learning to grapple will of course help with some of that. So it is at least one thing a cop or whatever can do to help himself out a bit.

 

[drop bear]

i think your over stating the rarity of tough people, i dont think its limited to special forces or those on drugs, i think from my exsperiance that people who will keep comming at you through any amount of pain are fairly common.

as such the whole pain compliance thing is very problematic, partixularly all the presure point nonsence, as are a number of the joint locks etal if there are somewhat stronger than you and can simply straighten their wrist

, the whole lot is drasticaly in need of pressure testing before being sold to the public as effective

but your correct that destructive technques are far more reliable, but they need to be destructive, breaking a nose or a jaw or a wrist, may only serve to annoy them, ive seen people take a good kicking of a group, get off the floor and attack with a brick, you actually have to be able to stop them

Everyone who out wrestles you was on drugs. It is kind of a rule.

I have never met a guy who admitted to just getting flogged because he was a bit crap at fighting.

 

[jobo]

Quite often what happens is people run out of ideas and start doing silly stuff because they are loosing control of the situation.

This is partially the officer. Partially the training and partially the system they are using. So rocking up alone and having to fight a guy for example.

Learning to grapple will of course help with some of that. So it is at least one thing a cop or whatever can do to help himself out a bit.

i cant disagree, people who wrestel for a living really ought to practice wrestling

but tgat is not how it seems to work, at least not here, the mininum fitness standard for police is extremly low, at a level where people with cardiac issues could easily pass

and they get a course in technque every couple of years or so, for half a day, so its left to indvidual officers if they wish to ve good at the part of the job that involves arresting violent people, or even if the criminal uses the clever strategy of running away,, it seem a lot dont bother

im aware that the entry standard for the Australian police is quite high, i dont know if they need to maintain it?

 

[Hanzou]

Unfortunately here in the states we get a lot of beta males who have been pushed around all their lives and they end up becoming cops. Now with a gun and the law on their side they think they're tough guys and like to bully people like they used to be bullied. I used to train with quite a few LEOs and the number of times they revealed to me that they liked to purposely abuse and punish people who disobeyed them was rather disturbing. This even included kids and teenagers who had the audacity to mouth off to them instead of just kowtowing to the big bad law man. Some of the racist **** they used to say about Blacks and Hispanics made my stomach churn, especially when you consider that they were learning martial arts from Latin America.

Policing here in the states needs to be fixed. Hopefully with the new administration coming into office, we can make some necessary changes, because the system as it stands cannot endure in a society that is becoming less white and more black and brown.

 

[dvcochran]

You’re right, I can easily sit on the sidelines and point out that there’s no need to put your knee on someone’s neck when they’re cuffed on their chest with 2 other men sitting on their back. There’s multiple ways to immobilize even an uncuffed person from that position without going to that level.

Now you are just using one particular incident that was rightfully highly covered by the media. Yes, clearly there were things done wrong by the officers. But you frame it as though every incident is handled in the same fashion.

Simply not true.

Are there times to put your knee on the neck? My experience unmistakably say YES. Try taking that guy down by yourself and you will change your opinion.

So, you want to pay the added taxes and overhead to have 6 officers at every traffic stop? Definitely not an effective or logical solution.

Cherry picking the few wrong incidents does not speak for the majority of incidents. This is one reason I mentioned that everything is on video now. Just a totally different ball game which requires better understanding by the Viewers as much as or more than the officers involved most often. One area where mainstream media is using their power to spin things as they wish causing misunderstanding and dissension.

To be clear; I worked with guys that had no business being officers. Guys that got scared sxxtless during an encounter and guys who loved to stir people into a frenzy. We all received the same training. Some guys never 'got it' on some of the training and were never going to, just like the people we see in our MA classes. Does that make them bad people? Not explicitly. But put a good person in a bad situation and you may be surprised what comes out. That is very true on both sides of the encounter equation. "So they should have never been an officer in the first place!". True, and those situation usually fixed themselves. But just like every other job type, there will always be certain people who really, really want to do said job even when they are not the best at it.
It is not like police officer jobs grade high on the national pay scale. Pair this with all the negative pressures of the job and it gets tough to fill open positions, which there are a Lot of right now. Now, go ahead and take the 'high road' and tell us why that should not matter.

I say this to point out that it is a complex issue.

 

[Hanzou]

Now you are just using one particular incident that was rightfully highly covered by the media. Yes, clearly there were things done wrong by the officers. But you frame it as though every incident is handled in the same fashion.

Simply not true.

Are there times to put your knee on the neck? My experience unmistakably say YES. Try taking that guy down by yourself and you will change your opinion.

So, you want to pay the added taxes and overhead to have 6 officers at every traffic stop? Definitely not an effective or logical solution.

Cherry picking the few wrong incidents does not speak for the majority of incidents. This is one reason I mentioned that everything is on video now. Just a totally different ball game which requires better understanding by the Viewers as much as or more than the officers involved most often. One area where mainstream media is using their power to spin things as they wish causing misunderstanding and dissension.

To be clear; I worked with guys that had no business being officers. Guys that got scared sxxtless during an encounter and guys who loved to stir people into a frenzy. We all received the same training. Some guys never 'got it' on some of the training and were never going to, just like the people we see in our MA classes. Does that make them bad people? Not explicitly. But put a good person in a bad situation and you may be surprised what comes out. That is very true on both sides of the encounter equation. "So they should have never been an officer in the first place!". True, and those situation usually fixed themselves. But just like every other job type, there will always be certain people who really, really want to do said job even when they are not the best at it.
It is not like police officer jobs grade high on the national pay scale. Pair this with all the negative pressures of the job and it gets tough to fill open positions, which there are a Lot of right now. Now, go ahead and take the 'high road' and tell us why that should not matter.

I say this to point out that it is a complex issue.

Uh huh.

Let me ask you an honest question; If there was no video evidence of that incident with George Floyd, what would have the chances been that those officers would have been prosecuted? After all, they wrote a police report saying that Floyd attacked them, which caused them to use extreme measures in order to subdue him. When we got the video, none of that was the case. So how many times have cops lied about what happened and gotten away with straight up murder?

Look, I'm a milquetoast white dude who lives in a nice home in suburbia with a six figure salary and a great education. I don't have to worry about cops messing with me or my lilly-white children. However, if i'm poor with darker skin, the situation changes dramatically. Minorities have been railroaded in this country for generations, mainly by a corrupt and racist justice system. The only reason the Floyd case got any traction was because it was taped and it was heinous. However if it wasn't taped, it would have just been another black guy resisting arrest.

Also you don't have to be a cop to deal with handling big scary men. I've dealt with men larger than me before, and I wasn't armed and I didn't have the law ready to excuse me if things went south. No, you don't have to put your knee on someone's neck to control them.

 

[dvcochran]

Unfortunately here in the states we get a lot of beta males who have been pushed around all their lives and they end up becoming cops. Now with a gun and the law on their side they think they're tough guys and like to bully people like they used to be bullied. I used to train with quite a few LEOs and the number of times they revealed to me that they liked to purposely abuse and punish people who disobeyed them was rather disturbing. This even included kids and teenagers who had the audacity to mouth off to them instead of just kowtowing to the big bad law man. Some of the racist **** they used to say about Blacks and Hispanics made my stomach churn, especially when you consider that they were learning martial arts from Latin America.

Policing here in the states needs to be fixed. Hopefully with the new administration coming into office, we can make some necessary changes, because the system as it stands cannot endure in a society that is becoming less white and more black and brown.

Agree.
So enlighten us all with your comprehensive plan to 'fix' the law enforcement system.

 

[jobo]

Uh huh.

Let me ask you an honest question; If there was no video evidence of that incident with George Floyd, what would have the chances been that those officers would have been prosecuted? After all, they wrote a police report saying that Floyd attacked them, which caused them to use extreme measures in order to subdue him. When we got the video, none of that was the case. So how many times have cops lied about what happened and gotten away with straight up murder?

Look, I'm a milquetoast white dude who lives in a nice home in suburbia with a six figure salary and a great education. I don't have to worry about cops messing with me or my lilly-white children. However, if i'm poor with darker skin, the situation changes dramatically. Minorities have been railroaded in this country for generations, mainly by a corrupt and racist justice system. The only reason the Floyd case got any traction was because it was taped and it was heinous. However if it wasn't taped, it would have just been another black guy resisting arrest.

Also you don't have to be a cop to deal with handling big scary men. I've dealt with men larger than me before, and I wasn't armed and I didn't have the law ready to excuse me if things went south. No, you don't have to put your knee on someone's neck to control them.

i think its easy, too too easy to just throw racial origin in, in my exsperiance the uk police generally treat poor people badly and not those who may be in a financial postion to fight back.

i was once stopped breathlized and questioned extensivly for wearing a base ball hat in a very nice car, clearly people driiving round in a jag that they came by honestly wouldnt wear a base ball hat, so criminal , obviously,,,,,

what we call stereotyping, the police call profiling, i made a note, that if i was ever,driving round in a stolen car or one loaded with contraband, not to wear a base ball hat

 

[Hanzou]

Agree.
So enlighten us all with your comprehensive plan to 'fix' the law enforcement system.

1. Better training (I think learning some grappling would be very helpful). I fully support more tax dollars going towards that effort.
2. Better screening of police recruits
3. Demilitarize police departments
4. Standardize body cams and put in place stiff punishments for cops who purposely turn them off.
5. Have police interact more with the communities they police (I know some do this already, but more needs to be done. People shouldn't be AFRAID of cops).
6. Hire more recruits from minority areas. I worked in an inner-city high school for years and we had military recruits constantly. Why aren't police departments actively recruiting from these areas on that level?
7. Make it less of a conflict of interest for DAs to prosecute bad and corrupt police officers
8. Support gun control legislation so that you guys don't have to worry about a gun getting shoved in your face at every traffic stop

We can start there.

 

[dvcochran]

Uh huh.

Let me ask you an honest question; If there was no video evidence of that incident with George Floyd, what would have the chances been that those officers would have been prosecuted? After all, they wrote a police report saying that Floyd attacked them, which caused them to use extreme measures in order to subdue him. When we got the video, none of that was the case. So how many times have cops lied about what happened and gotten away with straight up murder?

Look, I'm a milquetoast white dude who lives in a nice home in suburbia with a six figure salary and a great education. I don't have to worry about cops messing with me or my lilly-white children. However, if i'm poor with darker skin, the situation changes dramatically. Minorities have been railroaded in this country for generations, mainly by a corrupt and racist justice system. The only reason the Floyd case got any traction was because it was taped and it was heinous. However if it wasn't taped, it would have just been another black guy resisting arrest.

Also you don't have to be a cop to deal with handling big scary men. I've dealt with men larger than me before, and I wasn't armed and I didn't have the law ready to excuse me if things went south. No, you don't have to put your knee on someone's neck to control them.

Many other officers have been charged under similar circumstances. You are still playing the highlighted version of one particular incident.
If you have not already researched the whole story and Floyd's history you really need to.

I am much in the same situation/class as you. "Lilly white", not that it matters how/where we live. I imagine we are different in that I/we have lived, interacted, and worked with black folk all our life (I happen to be white folk). Hispanics have been in our area for around 20 years now. Really just another face. Do your job and we do not see color. Don't do you job and we do Not see color. You just will not have a job with us. Color means nothing in most every context.
Why would/should it? There is a flaw in your perception that is should or does to everyone.

The issue is that more people with your impression believe certain people are still being oppressed just because some of them choose to still carry that torch. That is on Them. What century are you living in?

Do you not understand that simply by the the sheer population numbers there are Many more incidents with white folks similar the Floyd incident. Do you see that on TV? Nope. But in your mind I figure that does not matter.

Try to wrap your head around this. The definition of the derogatory "N" term usually reserved for black folk has a very different meaning in most of the south now. If you are a no good piece of sxxt, regardless of race, creed, color you qualify. If you act like a sub species you qualify. It is really that simple.