Original purposes of martial arts

[puunui]

I think this is one of those things that could be argued forever.

I was thinking more along the lines of ordinary people not in charge of their country and their general disposition and culture. What you mention above is more extreme cases which would not necessarily make ordinary people taking up martial arts study. If anything, one result of such extreme circumstances would be the prohibition of martial arts study.

 

[dancingalone]

Which covers 99.9% of the practicing martial artists out there. Most people fall into whatever style they are studying out of convenience or circumstance.

Initially perhaps. More experienced and knowledgeable students frequently gravitate to teachers and studies that are a better fit for them than what they first signed up for. Sometimes this means they can stay within the same nominal style, but other times it can mean a complete shift entirely.

Why would such intent make their motivations complex?

Equally simple or equally complex is what I meant.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by dancingalone
Anyone can run out and learn some form of martial arts if they don't have a specific desire for a certain body of information.

Which covers 99.9% of the practicing martial artists out there. Most people fall into whatever style they are studying out of convenience or circumstance.

May I ask where you're coming up with the data to support your %? I think this is a wildly inaccurate statement. It may apply to children who don't have a choice (or are old enough to know there are choices) because their parents choose a school that is closest or cheapest. But children aren't 99.9% of the active martial arts students. It may also apply to 'some' adults, but it doesn't apply to what I would term 'professional' students i.e. those seeking either a martial art or a martial sport for a specific purpose. As I've mentioned before, I had adults (and a few children) who traveled to my school from the surrounding four counties (perhaps 80-100 miles round trip) to receive martial art training. Conversely, we have some martial sport schools with well known champions in my area and many people specifically sought them out, though they weren't the closest to them or by any means the cheapest. I have fellow Deputies that seek out specific schools, such as Aikido or Jujutsu, because they desire/require training on locks and throws which they've used in their on-duty altercations. I know several groups of martial artists that have an annual seminar in various parts of the country and people travel hundreds, even thousands of mile to attend in an art they specifically choose and convenience and circumstance was not part of the equation.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

May I ask where you're coming up with the data to support your %? I think this is a wildly inaccurate statement. It may apply to children who don't have a choice (or are old enough to know there are choices) because their parents choose a school that is closest or cheapest. But children aren't 99.9% of the active martial arts students. It may also apply to 'some' adults, but it doesn't apply to what I would term 'professional' students i.e. those seeking either a martial art or a martial sport for a specific purpose. As I've mentioned before, I had adults (and a few children) who traveled to my school from the surrounding four counties (perhaps 80-100 miles round trip) to receive martial art training. Conversely, we have some martial sport schools with well known champions in my area and many people specifically sought them out, though they weren't the closest to them or by any means the cheapest. I have fellow Deputies that seek out specific schools, such as Aikido or Jujutsu, because they desire/require training on locks and throws which they've used in their on-duty altercations. I know several groups of martial artists that have an annual seminar in various parts of the country and people travel hundreds, even thousands of mile to attend in an art they specifically choose and convenience and circumstance was not part of the equation.

I would say over half my class go well out of their way to get to training. They would pass heaps of other places to train on the way. Many are police officers or bouncers who have specific training requirements. Many just sought out exactly what they were looking for. Kids just go where their parents take them, adults usually do a bit of research and find what they want.

 

[Archtkd]

I was thinking more along the lines of ordinary people not in charge of their country and their general disposition and culture. What you mention above is more extreme cases which would not necessarily make ordinary people taking up martial arts study. If anything, one result of such extreme circumstances would be the prohibition of martial arts study.

Yes I agree that martial artists would be among the first targets of a violent uprising. I will admit, that's something I had not thought about, even though I know from my own personal experience that martial artists are always monitored by a repressive regimes.

 

[puunui]

Anyone can run out and learn some form of martial arts if they don't have a specific desire for a certain body of information.

Me: Which covers 99.9% of the practicing martial artists out there. Most people fall into whatever style they are studying out of convenience or circumstance.

Initially perhaps. More experienced and knowledgeable students frequently gravitate to teachers and studies that are a better fit for them than what they first signed up for. Sometimes this means they can stay within the same nominal style, but other times it can mean a complete shift entirely.

I can accept that, that people may later gravitate to styles more suiting their personality. But I still think that most "practicing martial artists", which are color belts, since color belt make up the majority of students in any given school (unless you have a relatively small club with only seniors) are color belts studying their first martial art. For them, which include a substantial, even overwhelming, number of children, they signed up because it was close. Or because their child is not enjoying it and so mom or dad sign up in the hopes that their child sticks it out, or mom or dad is taking and so their children end up taking at the same place, or they get a recommendation from a friend. Because of this, so many schools have explicit or even oral non compete agreements, where we agree not to open a dojang within three miles or five miles from someone else. Everyone knows that people generally go to the most convenient school for them. Most potential students walk in to a dojang and they don't know what they want. And people tend to stay with that style, until they quit.

You are talking about a higher more sophisticated student, someone who may have reached a certain level of achievement, within their style, and want to take it further. You are basically talking about the .001%, the rare group that takes it further than simply their own dojang which they always studied at.

 

[dancingalone]

But I still think that most "practicing martial artists", which are color belts, since color belt make up the majority of students in any given school (unless you have a relatively small club with only seniors) are color belts studying their first martial art. For them, which include a substantial, even overwhelming, number of children, they signed up because it was close. Or because their child is not enjoying it and so mom or dad sign up in the hopes that their child sticks it out, or mom or dad is taking and so their children end up taking at the same place, or they get a recommendation from a friend.

Are colored belts martial artists? I'm only asking that halfway tongue-in-cheek, given the handful of discussions we've had about first dans being a very low rank with a corresponding low level of expectations.

 

[puunui]

Are colored belts martial artists? I'm only asking that halfway tongue-in-cheek, given the handful of discussions we've had about first dans being a very low rank with a corresponding low level of expectations.

Sure, just like privates are still considered soldiers in the army. Just because someone is of a lower rank doesn't mean that they aren't considered martial artists or taekwondoin. Some may disagree, but to me, the three year old white belt, as soon as he puts that dobok on, becomes a taekwondoin. We want to include as many people as possible. That is the philosophy upon which taekwondo is built. Everybody belongs.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Sure, just like privates are still considered soldiers in the army. Just because someone is of a lower rank doesn't mean that they aren't considered martial artists or taekwondoin. Some may disagree, but to me, the three year old white belt, as soon as he puts that dobok on, becomes a taekwondoin. We want to include as many people as possible. That is the philosophy upon which taekwondo is built. Everybody belongs.

Caveat: enlistedmen earn the title of soldier by graduating basic training.

At least that's how the tradition goes. In Ft. Benning, the first time we ever heard ourselves called soldiers was at the end of the FTX.
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[puunui]

Caveat: enlistedmen earn the title of soldier by graduating basic training.

At least that's how the tradition goes. In Ft. Benning, the first time we ever heard ourselves called soldiers was at the end of the FTX.

Ok, so within today's taekwondo context, every three year old who has gone through the two trial lessons and whose parents sign the contract is a taekwondoin.