M
MartialArtist
Guest
Yeah, they have no relevance.
Also look at Greco-Roman wrestling as in the traditional wrestling. And Greek boxing.
Origin = Shaolin
- Thread starter 7starmantis
- Start date
Also look at Greco-Roman wrestling as in the traditional wrestling. And Greek boxing.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
Anyway, here is why today's "masters" who claim they teach Shaolin are...
http://tickets.msn.com/Presale/default.aspx?artist=ShaolinMonks
That's it, theater and dance. Anyone who thinks more of them should be dragged out to the street and shot. Shaolin like it once was is dead as with those posers who either know they're doing theater or they are somehow like the ancient Shaolin monks... Yet, you see those people eating meat all the time after the show.
http://tickets.msn.com/Presale/default.aspx?artist=ShaolinMonks
That's it, theater and dance. Anyone who thinks more of them should be dragged out to the street and shot. Shaolin like it once was is dead as with those posers who either know they're doing theater or they are somehow like the ancient Shaolin monks... Yet, you see those people eating meat all the time after the show.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Just reapting what I saw on a BBC documentary on it, theyshowed how asia had trade routes going from the west of asia to the eastgoing right by Indonesia, Malaysia and so on. The Pagoda was one of the things that was exported out of Indonesia, aording to the documentary it was used as some sort of grave.....the more levels to the Pagoda the more important the person.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
I would like to see that documentary though.
This is the first time I have ever heard of such claim. Not saying I am an expert on this or anything in that nature.
I hope that was not an out of the mainstream researcher making a bold claim.
Through out Chinese history, trading with the southeast asian nations was minimal if any at all. Those nations were considered uncivilized and were treated as subordinate states or simply ignored. The Chinese considered theirs to be the Middle Kingdom. Learning and absorbing new foreign culture was not a strong point of the kingdom. Case in point: Korea and Japan absorbed significant amount of Chinese culture. But there was hardly anything going the other way in the past.
I can't comment further w/o seeing the documentary.
This is the first time I have ever heard of such claim. Not saying I am an expert on this or anything in that nature.
I hope that was not an out of the mainstream researcher making a bold claim.
Through out Chinese history, trading with the southeast asian nations was minimal if any at all. Those nations were considered uncivilized and were treated as subordinate states or simply ignored. The Chinese considered theirs to be the Middle Kingdom. Learning and absorbing new foreign culture was not a strong point of the kingdom. Case in point: Korea and Japan absorbed significant amount of Chinese culture. But there was hardly anything going the other way in the past.
I can't comment further w/o seeing the documentary.
OP
OP
It is true that shaolin was in its creative period influenced by an Indian Buddhist priest named Bodhidharma (Tamo in Chinese). He was at first refused atmitance into the temple, but was allowed in later. When he joined the monks they were out of shape and unhealthy. Tamo countered this weakness by teaching them moving exercises, designed to both enhance ch'i flow and build strength. These sets, modified from Indian yogas (mainly hatha, and raja) were based on the movements of the 18 main animals in Indo-Chinese iconography (e.g., tiger, deer, leopard, cobra, snake, dragon, etc.) Its hard to say when these "Sets" became actuall "MArtial Arts" since the Shaolin temple was in a secluded area so most of the martial aspects of the temple were more than likely for self defense against bandits and wild animals. This is not to say that Tamo "invented" martial arts. Martial arts had existed in China for centuries. But within confines of the temple, it was possible to develop and codify these martial arts into the new and different styles that would become distinctly Shaolin.
I think that MA as a whole if you take aomeone hitting another person with thier hand as MA have been around since the begining of man, but as a coded a recorded system I think that is a very different issue.
7sm
I think that MA as a whole if you take aomeone hitting another person with thier hand as MA have been around since the begining of man, but as a coded a recorded system I think that is a very different issue.
7sm
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
That is the popular story for it anyway..............but the problem is that if people repeat a story long enough after a while everyone just accepts it as fact. You would surprised at the lack of "strict" historical research done in the history of the MA.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Which ones?
How did they codify it?
And how do we know it was done so in the temple?
Isn't it possible someone could have come from outside the temple as has been suggested by you (Tamo) and brought some form of MA with him?
If it happened once it could happen again.........right?
I am of the opinion that martial arts were brought into the temple from the outside rather than produced from with in it.
It is possible they were modified while inside but most of the wars and conflicts took place outside the temple walls..........not within them.
OP
OP
Your getting into defing terms and such. What is actual martial arts? Yes the use of it as in the wars is the actual use of martial arts, but by that thought you are not training in MA whne not involved in a fight. Thats simply getting into nick picking, I agree that outside influences happened alot, and I'm not saying the origin of MA is shoalin, I just brought the point up for discussion.
7sm
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
Found that ad in black belt mag. It can be found in May 94 issue. One Sokeship that sticks out like a sore thumb is Int'l Kenpo Karate Remmei, USA. It is to Ed Parker, Soke Shodai. He is listed as deceased ZKSBBR Soke Member.
Bob :asian:
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Actually I am not defining terms.....or "nick picking"
....maybe"wars" was not agood word choice. What I meant was conflicts......be they armed, un-armed, man to man or whatever.........they took place more so on the outside of the temple and most likely developed more there than inside, and therefore were brought into the temple.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
There are a lot of Chinese arts that have existed for a long time. An art like Chiao Ti aka shuai chiao.
OP
OP
Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually I am not defining terms.....or "nick picking"
Yeah I got what you were saying, I'm just saying that be it actually physically inside the brick walls that made up the temple or outside of them, systems that were created "at" Shoalin is ment, created by the monks of Shoalin, not saying that every moment they worked on the system was inside the walls of the temple.
7sm
This is very true, Robert. A group of folks contacted Discovery after the show aired about Rod and his Juko Kai. Their attitude was that the show was done by a third party group, which was unverified, and their biggest response was that since they didn't do it, it's not their fault. They didn't seem to care much. I heard through the grapevine that a member of the production crew is also a member of Juko Kai...which would explain alot, but I can't verify this.
I especially like the part of the program when he showed the picture sitting in seiza next to the Soke of Shindo Yoshin ryu. They met ONE DAY...and when propositioned on what it would take to get Menkyo Kaiden, Rod was asked to leave. Far different from his accounts in the show..
As for the Ta Mo legend. That's all it is...nothing more then a tale with *zero* historical documentation to back it up. I don't care how many websites list it as history...websites are only as credible as the person who makes it.
In reality, there were not "Shoalin arts". There were arts that the Shoalin studied and worked on diligently, but historically speaking, I'm sure you cannot find a single art that was created within the walls of a Shaolin temple. There were many. And none in the South...that was a fictional story written in the early 1900's.
OP
OP
Actually historicaly a basic "shoalin system" was created for the monks to increase their health and live long lives. That is historicaly acepted by every historian on the subject I have had contact with. The fact was the monks were very out of shape from their works usually involving long periods of time transcribing, and the "system" was created to help them keep their bodies healthy while doing such "tideous" work every day. It later became a system of self defense against "bandits" and wild animals as accustomed to the location of the temple. Thats what "shoalin arts" would refer to. They later became known for their "fighting" skills.
7sm
7sm
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Odd how this system seems to have disappeared...... and yet the others remain.
Most martial historians are "hacks" at best. I have yet to seen ANY modern "Martial Historian's" work that would pass a college review board. Most of their work is based on other books with equally inaccurate notions based on hearsay and rumor.
This "transcribing" that you state started several hundred years after this Tao Mo fellow is supposed to have been on the seen.
You would think with all the transcribing they did their records would have been extremely accurate as to their martial studies and yet they seem to be extremely haphazard.
Again........"legend" with no facts to base it upon.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
After bandits and wild animals, they evolved for protection from invaders.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
Not to mention there is hardly any primary sources.
OP
OP
What "others are you talking about? Other countries systems? If martial historians are "hacks" then you would have no history on any "other" systems either, correct ?
The system of breathing and exercises has not disappeared. It is the basic Chi Gung like Eight Pieces of Brocade etc.
I can't see why the conjecture that an Indian monk taught the Chinese monks these yoga style exercises is any less than extremely plausible.
These exercises are indeed the foundation of the Shaolin styles of kung fu, and are what make it different to other arts, especially the 'farmer styles' of boxing and Shiu Jiao etc. Although Kicking, punching and grappling are common to all indigenous styles around the world, styles do differ by all sorts of things like philosophy, training methods and theory. The Shaolin styles have a philosophy, training method and theory that are distinct and have clear links with Indian Buddhism.
The details may be hazy, but trying to contend that the core of Shaolin Kung Fu is not Indian Buddhist style of techniques for health is ridiculous.
I can't see why the conjecture that an Indian monk taught the Chinese monks these yoga style exercises is any less than extremely plausible.
These exercises are indeed the foundation of the Shaolin styles of kung fu, and are what make it different to other arts, especially the 'farmer styles' of boxing and Shiu Jiao etc. Although Kicking, punching and grappling are common to all indigenous styles around the world, styles do differ by all sorts of things like philosophy, training methods and theory. The Shaolin styles have a philosophy, training method and theory that are distinct and have clear links with Indian Buddhism.
The details may be hazy, but trying to contend that the core of Shaolin Kung Fu is not Indian Buddhist style of techniques for health is ridiculous.
