Organizational Unity

[American HKD]

Greetings Everyone,

Is everyone happy about the Hapkido's community dividsion into many different Associations and ranking or governing bodies?

More and more these days it seems that a new Assoication is being formed I'm sure there's over two dozen right now.

Is that just the way it is where everyone finds thier own niche and is content forever?

What if one out grows his teacher or has personal issues in a Association, What do you do?

Is it easy for your rank to be recognized else where or a major hassel?

I would like to hear from everyone but not just opinions, but from people who actually had these expiriences and can shed some light on these issues.

What if anything would most of you want to see as a change for the better?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I had a series of eye-opening responses to a question, not unlike the one you have posed. What I drew from those responses was the following.

a.) In Theory, everybody wants harmony, fellowship, to speak the same language--- in short a Hapkido community free of conflict.

b.) In Practice, what people want is to enjoy Hapkido as a unique expression of their own value system and priorities.

Since the idea of promoting individuality is to assure oneself that what that person does is unique and distinguishable from what everyone else is doing, the result is that many times a person will promote a different view or position just for the sake of being unique. Its pretty easy to see that one is going to have little success extolling uniformity to what is inherently a crowd of die-hard non-conformists.

We have often looked to the Koreans for guidance in resolving this conundrum, but they are no better off than are we. Neo-Confucian culture goes just so far in resolving the need for "individuality". People who can't accept their position in the "Old Country" come to places like the States to start up their own activities and events without the stigma of deviating from time-honored traditions.

Here in the States one would think that we would do well with the entrepeneurial spirit, but the result is that the romantic in each of us wants to cling to the illusion that what we do is identical to what is done in Korea. Its not, but we spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince ourselves and each other that we can have our individuality and eschew it, too. Maybe this is possible with martial sport. It is not possible with martial art. Martial art defers the good of the one to the good of the community and we just don't work like that here in the States. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

I had a series of eye-opening responses to a question, not unlike the one you have posed. What I drew from those responses was the following.

a.) In Theory, everybody wants harmony, fellowship, to speak the same language--- in short a Hapkido community free of conflict.

b.) In Practice, what people want is to enjoy Hapkido as a unique expression of their own value system and priorities.

Since the idea of promoting individuality is to assure oneself that what that person does is unique and distinguishable from what everyone else is doing, the result is that many times a person will promote a different view or position just for the sake of being unique. Its pretty easy to see that one is going to have little success extolling uniformity to what is inherently a crowd of die-hard non-conformists.

We have often looked to the Koreans for guidance in resolving this conundrum, but they are no better off than are we. Neo-Confucian culture goes just so far in resolving the need for "individuality". People who can't accept their position in the "Old Country" come to places like the States to start up their own activities and events without the stigma of deviating from time-honored traditions.

Here in the States one would think that we would do well with the entrepeneurial spirit, but the result is that the romantic in each of us wants to cling to the illusion that what we do is identical to what is done in Korea. Its not, but we spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince ourselves and each other that we can have our individuality and eschew it, too. Maybe this is possible with martial sport. It is not possible with martial art. Martial art defers the good of the one to the good of the community and we just don't work like that here in the States. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I agree with you and that's why I have a problem and it bothers me.

1. Our Korean leaders so to speak are no better than us which makes it hard to respect them as a higher authority and count on them to do the right thing. Romantically speaking we should be able to look up to them.
The KHF is turning into a for money business and very exclusionary.

2. The fact that one Association here or anywhere excludes one another for some reason be it business, curriculum, power, whatever really bothers me. That's not Martial Arts to me either.

I could very well be wasting my energy in trying to deal with it or find some common ground for all of us? I could just shut up and do my own thing like most people do?

Or few people who ever they are can unite and deal with it as fair and honest leaders a rise above the rest.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart:
I think you forgot one major element in the #2 paragraph... and that is which lineage we wish to follow as the only true Hap Ki Do. If the door is shut to many who follow what in their opinion is the ONLY true Hap Ki do, then you will never be able to unite them all.

So far, I see some folks who follow DJN Choi, others follow DJN Ji. Both sides claim that theirs is the ONLY true Hap Ki Do. Then there are still others who have trained for many years in martial arts that are so similar that it is hard to distinguish them from either of these two.

For example, JR is widely accepted as being a Hap Ki Do Master. On the other hand, my lineage is by some thought to be NON Hap Ki Do. Yet, JRs technique and mine are nearly identical.

Does Grandmaster Kimm not teach Hap Ki Do???? He wrote one of the best books on the art I have seen. He also wrote the best book on Kuk Sool, and he was for a long time one of Kuk Sool's highest ranking Masters. So what IS Hap Ki Do. Perhaps we need to answer that question to everyone's satisfaction first before any unification is feasible.

I guess my question is this. Who will be excluded???? No sense for me, or some of the other leaders, to get involved if we are not looked at as Hap Ki Doin, is there? You are doing a commendable job, but there is much diplomacy required before you can expect results that are positive. I do not envy you, as I have tried and failed thirty some years ago.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:
I think you forgot one major element in the #2 paragraph... and that is which lineage we wish to follow as the only true Hap Ki Do. If the door is shut to many who follow what in their opinion is the ONLY true Hap Ki do, then you will never be able to unite them all.

So far, I see some folks who follow DJN Choi, others follow DJN Ji. Both sides claim that theirs is the ONLY true Hap Ki Do. Then there are still others who have trained for many years in martial arts that are so similar that it is hard to distinguish them from either of these two.

For example, JR is widely accepted as being a Hap Ki Do Master. On the other hand, my lineage is by some thought to be NON Hap Ki Do. Yet, JRs technique and mine are nearly identical.

Does Grandmaster Kimm not teach Hap Ki Do???? He wrote one of the best books on the art I have seen. He also wrote the best book on Kuk Sool, and he was for a long time one of Kuk Sool's highest ranking Masters. So what IS Hap Ki Do. Perhaps we need to answer that question to everyone's satisfaction first before any unification is feasible.

I guess my question is this. Who will be excluded???? No sense for me, or some of the other leaders, to get involved if we are not looked at as Hap Ki Doin, is there? You are doing a commendable job, but there is much diplomacy required before you can expect results that are positive. I do not envy you, as I have tried and failed thirty some years ago.

Rudy,

I really apreciated your input it makes me think of things a may have not come up with alone. BTW I don't envy me either, I'm not going to get anywhere alone as I said before and at some point I'll stop but maybe I can make people think a little for now.

You're right historically speaking I believe Kuk Sool, Hwrang Do and Hapkido share the core of Choi Yong Sul. From what I have seen they mainly differ in the use of forms and some weapons the rest is minor. I believe these founders to be intellectually dis-honest as to the roots of thier Arts but that's a another subject.

As far as who should be in or out. People who have the Choi/Ji lineage call and call what they do Hapkido should be in, people who call thier Art something else should go to thier own Associations.

My main point here is I don't know the variations in the Arts of Kuk Sool and Hwrang Do so why should pretend to be an advocate for them?
I think you have to draw a line somewhere don't you?

Question what are the actual accepted lineages of Kuk Sool & Hwrang do and where does Choi fit in officially?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"......My main point here is I don't know the variations in the Arts of Kuk Sool and Hwrang Do so why should pretend to be an advocate for them?
I think you have to draw a line somewhere don't you?...."

On this we agree, but you and I differ considerably about where we would draw the line and why.

For my part I draw the line for inclusion rather than exclusion. The minimum standards that I have talked about are to assure safe practice and a common terminology to foster better communication. What I hear you saying is that the line is drawn for exclusion and to make sure that the Hapkido community is divided into Hapkido "haves" and "have-nots". There are a lot of people I don't think much of. Ji comes to mind. So does Pelligrini and Shaw. But if their practitioners can negotiate a training session with me without injury to themselves or their partners why must I exclude the student because I don't think much of the teacher, right? I like the Kuk Sool material as far as hand-to-hand but have some real problems with the weapons material. So if a KSW person comes to one of my sword classes do I exclude him because I think Suhs' material sucks?

Now, if I want to play in YOUR park for a moment I don't have to start a new organization. If I want exclusivity both KSW and HRD have been very clear about how elite they view themselves to be. If all I want is rank and standing its not as though its all that hard to get that either. I bet if a person wanted to get consideration for the MA equivalent of "life experience" (Ie. 20 yrs as a bouncer) I bet there is someone out there that will give that. I just don't know what all of this has to do with making the Hapkido community fundamentally or collectively better. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

"......My main point here is I don't know the variations in the Arts of Kuk Sool and Hwrang Do so why should pretend to be an advocate for them?
I think you have to draw a line somewhere don't you?...."

On this we agree, but you and I differ considerably about where we would draw the line and why.

For my part I draw the line for inclusion rather than exclusion. The minimum standards that I have talked about are to assure safe practice and a common terminology to foster better communication. What I hear you saying is that the line is drawn for exclusion and to make sure that the Hapkido community is divided into Hapkido "haves" and "have-nots". There are a lot of people I don't think much of. Ji comes to mind. So does Pelligrini and Shaw. But if their practitioners can negotiate a training session with me without injury to themselves or their partners why must I exclude the student because I don't think much of the teacher, right? I like the Kuk Sool material as far as hand-to-hand but have some real problems with the weapons material. So if a KSW person comes to one of my sword classes do I exclude him because I think Suhs' material sucks?

Now, if I want to play in YOUR park for a moment I don't have to start a new organization. If I want exclusivity both KSW and HRD have been very clear about how elite they view themselves to be. If all I want is rank and standing its not as though its all that hard to get that either. I bet if a person wanted to get consideration for the MA equivalent of "life experience" (Ie. 20 yrs as a bouncer) I bet there is someone out there that will give that. I just don't know what all of this has to do with making the Hapkido community fundamentally or collectively better. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

What I'm saying is not as B&W as you make it sound.

I'm advocating helping Hapkido students and teachers not keeping out others, so what your saying is ridiculus.

If your student of Hapkido you would want to join for obvious reasons, if
you are a Black Belt in Kuk Sool you may want to join and learn about Hapkido that's great too.

But if a Kuk Sool 1st Dan who want's a 2nd Dan from a HKD Association because you had a falling out with your teacher and you think it's the same Art more or less that's to bad.

As far as a Pelligrini goes it requires some thought. As you very well know the name Hapkido has become whatever people want it to mean these days and may not be any where close to the Art we're speaking of.

Please don't just throw out stuff that's mixing apple and oranges and side tracking the real issues.

I know you know what I mean.

 

[dosandojang]

BEAUTIFUL POST Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart:
I guess now it is in the open that there WILL be exclusions. Since I am of the Pak/Suh lineage, it is clear then that I am out.

FWIW, this is precisely what I mean by politics being part of the whole idea, and that is why I was cautious about jumping in. MY opinion on the issue is that there are students out there who want to train and learn Hap Ki Do. Some of them are from this organization, and others from another organization; however, they share a common root, and in my view they should not be excluded.

Since I am as high in rank as I care to go, it is certainly not that I am looking to get recognition or rank. However, as a caring mentor to many people, I have to look after their interest. Having said that, I still wish you well in your endeavors, but I think to send you my KSB curriculum would be a moot point at this time.

 

[Black Belt FC]

Greeting gentlemen,



I find your discussion about minimum Hapkido standard and creating an organization interesting. As a school owner why would I change my curriculum to satisfy an association body? What benefits will it do my school; what I’m teaching now has been well received? The bottom line for me the school’s Hapkido curriculum must be safe, effective and straightforward.



The only people I feel responsible to are my seniors within my current association, some other high-ranking Hapkido Masters that had offer their friendship, and ultimately my students. My current association requires me to attend their seminars yearly and don’t force me to follow their set standards. However, they expect me to adhere to their techniques.



I prefer if possible the discussion was more about respecting each other and not rushing to judgment. Some of you I met personally and had walked away with a possible outlook. However, just a few (not many) left me wondering if you train at all for the sake of training. Sadly only a few has earned my respect and admiration, wish there were more.



Lugo

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:
I guess now it is in the open that there WILL be exclusions. Since I am of the Pak/Suh lineage, it is clear then that I am out.

FWIW, this is precisely what I mean by politics being part of the whole idea, and that is why I was cautious about jumping in. MY opinion on the issue is that there are students out there who want to train and learn Hap Ki Do. Some of them are from this organization, and others from another organization; however, they share a common root, and in my view they should not be excluded.

Since I am as high in rank as I care to go, it is certainly not that I am looking to get recognition or rank. However, as a caring mentor to many people, I have to look after their interest. Having said that, I still wish you well in your endeavors, but I think to send you my KSB curriculum would be a moot point at this time.

Rudy,

I didn't say I'm excluding anyone who wants to learn Hapkido I thought that's clear.

But I hear you saying Kuk Sool is Hapkido?
What is the pak/suh lineage and who taught Suh, Yong Sul Choi?
Is Kuk Sool, Hapkido or not and should it be part of the same tradition?

Please clarify.

 

[SenseiBear]

I too have been finding these threads facinating, and at times the conversation seems to have been on the verge of a way to both help standardize the hapkido community and maintain various organizations individuality.

Just by way of introduction, I hold no rank in hapkido, but my instructor attained a blackbelt in what he identified as "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" in the 70's, before he began training in our current art. He teaches forms that are variations of, but recognizably the same ones found in Kuk Sool Won, but also said that other styles of hapkido he trained in used no forms. He teaches the principle of non-resistance, the circular principle, and the water principle. I have learned many sets of numbered "hapkido" techniques. A couple of my students moved to Virginia and found and fit right in with a hapkido school of I believe Mr. Myung's organization, and hold blackbelts through that organization. So while I don't "do" hapkido, I feel some kinship with the art.

A minimum standard such as Bruce was talking about would give someone like me, if I were in the greater Chicago area (and I leave tonight and fly into Midway early morning, Woodridge-Lindenhurst is a bit of a drive, but still), a list I could review and say yes, I can do the things on this list, and he would know that I can safely participate in his workout - I would expect that he would still assess my skills while on the mat, but it would give him a starting point.

Beyond that, the conversation at times seems to have been close to what I have started to see as a Hapkido Standards Institute, or the like. What has grown up in my mind from the various threads I have been reading is sort of like this:

I could see an institute that is not a governing body, but rather an elective organization whose charter was to establish mutually agreed upon minimum standards for hapkido. Members of the Board would be people from exisitng orgs. and could serve 1 year terms, and annually update and re-certify the standards. The basics Bruce is working on could be a starting point. Somewhere in these threads he brought up that everyone seems to agree that a kick of a certain class was needed, but couldn't agree on what. In such cases, the standards could state that for blackbelt, (for example) 2 kicks of type "A" and 2 kicks of type "B" are required, and provide a list of acceptable techniques.

Orgs that endorsed the Institutes standards (presumably those on Board, as well as any others that care to), would certify that people they promote to blackbelt meet at least those minimum requirement, and allows the Org to certify those blackbelts for the institute. It would not require that any org change their standards, and most orgs would likely exceed those standards, but they would be minimum level that they could all look at and agree that if someone does at least that stuff, they are generally a blackbelt in hapkido.

If someone (for example) from Rudy's org moved and joined Mr. Whalen's org, if they both endorse the institute, then the org gaining a member knows that the new person has a certain baseline of knowledge. That wouldn't mean that the person wouldn't have to pass the appropriate test to have a level of rank in Mr. Whalen's organization, but it assures they have common ground and language.

And perhaps, if someone comes to the Institute without a certified blackbelt, the Institute could test that person and certify that their level of knowledge is equivilant to a hapkido blackbelt... Or perhaps not, I guess that would be up to the imaginary Institute Board.

Well, that is the idea all this conversation has given me - for whatever an outsider's opinion is worth.

 

[iron_ox]

I too have been finding these threads facinating, and at times the conversation seems to have been on the verge of a way to both help standardize the hapkido community and maintain various organizations individuality.

Just by way of introduction, I hold no rank in hapkido, but my instructor attained a blackbelt in what he identified as "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" in the 70's, before he began training in our current art. He teaches forms that are variations of, but recognizably the same ones found in Kuk Sool Won, but also said that other styles of hapkido he trained in used no forms. He teaches the principle of non-resistance, the circular principle, and the water principle. I have learned many sets of numbered "hapkido" techniques. A couple of my students moved to Virginia and found and fit right in with a hapkido school of I believe Mr. Myung's organization, and hold blackbelts through that organization. So while I don't "do" hapkido, I feel some kinship with the art.

A minimum standard such as Bruce was talking about would give someone like me, if I were in the greater Chicago area (and I leave tonight and fly into Midway early morning, Woodridge-Lindenhurst is a bit of a drive, but still), a list I could review and say yes, I can do the things on this list, and he would know that I can safely participate in his workout - I would expect that he would still assess my skills while on the mat, but it would give him a starting point.

Beyond that, the conversation at times seems to have been close to what I have started to see as a Hapkido Standards Institute, or the like. What has grown up in my mind from the various threads I have been reading is sort of like this:

I could see an institute that is not a governing body, but rather an elective organization whose charter was to establish mutually agreed upon minimum standards for hapkido. Members of the Board would be people from exisitng orgs. and could serve 1 year terms, and annually update and re-certify the standards. The basics Bruce is working on could be a starting point. Somewhere in these threads he brought up that everyone seems to agree that a kick of a certain class was needed, but couldn't agree on what. In such cases, the standards could state that for blackbelt, (for example) 2 kicks of type "A" and 2 kicks of type "B" are required, and provide a list of acceptable techniques.

Orgs that endorsed the Institutes standards (presumably those on Board, as well as any others that care to), would certify that people they promote to blackbelt meet at least those minimum requirement, and allows the Org to certify those blackbelts for the institute. It would not require that any org change their standards, and most orgs would likely exceed those standards, but they would be minimum level that they could all look at and agree that if someone does at least that stuff, they are generally a blackbelt in hapkido.

If someone (for example) from Rudy's org moved and joined Mr. Whalen's org, if they both endorse the institute, then the org gaining a member knows that the new person has a certain baseline of knowledge. That wouldn't mean that the person wouldn't have to pass the appropriate test to have a level of rank in Mr. Whalen's organization, but it assures they have common ground and language.

And perhaps, if someone comes to the Institute without a certified blackbelt, the Institute could test that person and certify that their level of knowledge is equivilant to a hapkido blackbelt... Or perhaps not, I guess that would be up to the imaginary Institute Board.

Well, that is the idea all this conversation has given me - for whatever an outsider's opinion is worth.

WOW, You hit it right on the head...this idea is not about exclusion or inclusion, or money, or whatever else. The idea is about standards, and then eventually, definition of what Hapkido is. I do not believe that the term Hapkido is a generic one, and subscribe to a heavily lineage influenced side of the fence. Others do not, but I still feel that the term Hapkido should fall within a certain set of definitions and boundries. If those standards are met, then the group, individual can belong and use the standards for whatever pupose is needed, including a moving student.

If this doesn't suit your needs, fine, cool, don't join, thanks for looking, no harm done. No one here is asking that people leave organizations, or change curriculums, but if they want to be involved, maintain a certain mutually agreed upon standard. If you current organization does what and all you need, awesome.

 

[kwanjang]

Rudy,

I didn't say I'm excluding anyone who wants to learn Hapkido I thought that's clear.

But I hear you saying Kuk Sool is Hapkido?
What is the pak/suh lineage and who taught Suh, Yong Sul Choi?
Is Kuk Sool, Hapkido or not and should it be part of the same tradition?

Please clarify.

Hello Stuart:
I don't have the answers. In my view what I teach IS Hap Ki Do; however, it seems like others do not, and that is what I was trying to get to.

For example. Most people accept that DJN Kimm IS Hap Ki Do, and many think his book is the bible of Hap Ki do. Yet, DJN Kimm was, for years, one of Kuk Sool's main Masters.

When I compare MY technique v/s JR West's technique, I see more similarities than differences. He is considered one of Hap KI Do's most respected Masters by many. Yet, because I am of a different lineage, I would be excluded from this group. You see what I am getting at. How DO you all propose to define what is and what is NOT Hap KI Do????

By making such decisions, is that not getting into politics??? WHO will decide etc. etc. I see lots of work ahead of you, and I am afraid it will be a thankless job. You are a good man, and I hate to see you get caught up in something like this without giving you a heads up.

 

[glad2bhere]

"......When I compare MY technique v/s JR West's technique, I see more similarities than differences. He is considered one of Hap KI Do's most respected Masters by many. Yet, because I am of a different lineage, I would be excluded from this group. You see what I am getting at. How DO you all propose to define what is and what is NOT Hap KI Do????....."

I am lifting a line from your post, Rudy, not to comment on your contribution but to underscore something I have referenced time and again and which is consistently and carefully being avoided by a number of folks. Please note in the first sentence above that you mention seeing "more similarities than differences." Of course, I for one would probably included an elaboration on what those similarities might be, but you see, I wouldn't be able to. Reason? Because we have no common language for discussing such things.

As I have mentioned before its relatively easy for a group of folks to get together and start yet one more organization with whatever goals. But to make REAL change in the daily method of doing Hapkido business we need to agree on what we do and how we do it, and that, I am afraid is one major point upon which noone wants to agree. In order to have this facility I am afraid that folks would have to start by agreeing that we all basically do the same thing, that the divisions of Hapkido into a variety of arts is both arbitrary and artificial, and that it is perpetuated to feed the needs of the players to feel unique and special. But lets put the supposing to one side and ask some actual questions about Stuarts' organization idea.

Given that we start a new organization........

1.) Who will write the by-laws?

2.) Who will incorporate the organization and what form will the incorporation take?

3.) Who will write your taxonomy and what form will THAT take?

5.) Who will administer the affairs of the organization?

6.) Under what compunction will compliance with the organizational by-laws and will be made?

In short, I hear a lot of loose talk about yet another castle built in the air but not one person has volunteered to lay a stone of foundation. Mike (Disco) has advanced the idea of meeting at the Internationale (Spring 2005) and there have been three responses. I have begun a minimal standard and getting contributions has been like pulling teeth. Kevin (Iron Ox) is discussing a standards institute and I would like to know whether he is getting any more cooperation than have I. To make changes in the Hapkido there will need to be changes in behaviors. Who is willing to stop theorizing and start doing?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Exactly what I have been saying all along Bruce. WHO????? I've tried this back in the early 70's and NKMAA is what finally became the end result. Reason!!!! NO Cooperation. I kept it going, because I could still see a need to be fullfilled, and my membership around the globe is testament that I AM providing a service to quite a number.

What I am really saying here is that a group effort is in my experience not going to work. By its very nature, martial arts create a strong independence. My suggesiton to you is to continue what you are doing, and then have it available for all who want to make use of it. YOU are the originator, and YOU keep up the additonal work it will surely require. The reason is simple. You won't get enough help to make it as a group, even if there are several people who agree it would be an asset.

So, if the talk about providing a service to the Hap Ki Do community is for real, and no remuneration or power is sought after, why not just go it alone instead of waiting for that elusive assistance. I did, and I have helped a load of people with assistance they could not find elsewhere due to politics. Sure, I charge a nominal fee, but I have found in my lifetime that freebees are not respected. Perhaps you should remember that when you offer your model to the community. Lots of folks looking for curriculum development.

 

[American HKD]

Exactly what I have been saying all along Bruce. WHO????? I've tried this back in the early 70's and NKMAA is what finally became the end result. Reason!!!! NO Cooperation. I kept it going, because I could still see a need to be fullfilled, and my membership around the globe is testament that I AM providing a service to quite a number.

What I am really saying here is that a group effort is in my experience not going to work. By its very nature, martial arts create a strong independence. My suggesiton to you is to continue what you are doing, and then have it available for all who want to make use of it. YOU are the originator, and YOU keep up the additonal work it will surely require. The reason is simple. You won't get enough help to make it as a group, even if there are several people who agree it would be an asset.

So, if the talk about providing a service to the Hap Ki Do community is for real, and no remuneration or power is sought after, why not just go it alone instead of waiting for that elusive assistance. I did, and I have helped a load of people with assistance they could not find elsewhere due to politics. Sure, I charge a nominal fee, but I have found in my lifetime that freebees are not respected. Perhaps you should remember that when you offer your model to the community. Lots of folks looking for curriculum development.

Dear Rudy & Bruce,

Rudy you may have answered my BIG QUESTION which clicked in my mind right away.

.....What I am really saying here is that a group effort is in my experience not going to work. By its very nature, martial arts create a strong independence. My suggesiton to you is to continue what you are doing, and then have it available for all who want to make use of it. YOU are the originator, and YOU keep up the additonal work it will surely require. The reason is simple. You won't get enough help to make it as a group, even if there are several people who agree it would be an asset.........

Martial Arts creates a strong independence! That's beautiful Rudy and so true and that explains why everyone want to do thier own thing and I can understand that now and respect it! I was missing that intellectually, I was feeling it but not puting it into thought. Thanks

Bruce about the WHO. I'm was willing to do all the organizational work at my own start up expence, hoping I would have assistance from other interested members. I've been in business for 18 years and am quite capable of running this type of organization.

But you're comment about all talk and castles in the air was meant as a put down. You're smart enough to know you need to talk, plan, form ideas and get direction first. Who builds a house without a good plan? The answer is only a fool.

Happy Thankgiving

 

[glad2bhere]

No, Stuart. What I said was NOT a put-down. It was an invitation to eat a "reality sandwich". I think Rudy is right on the money.

Its no big secret that I have a lot of respect for Rudy, JR West, Alain (Burrese) and a number of other prominent figures in the Hapkido community. It would be my fervent hope that if I could get the ball rolling on some initiative that they might join it. But Rudy makes a very valid point. Whether or not people want to pitch-in, the need is still great. I have no intention of waiting for larger figures than I to validate what needs to be done, and I invite you to do the same. Its enough that we make sure that folks are aware of what we are working on such that individuals who are interested will be attracted.I will probably post up-dates of the Minimal Standards Project and solicit opinions and suggestions. I have no intention of waiting until somebody elects to touch me with their particular wand. As we are all affirming, there is a strong need for independent action in the KMA, and people are going protect their individuality before worrying about the good of the Hapkido arts overall. Sad, but true. Applying the Water Principle of Hapkido I take whatever condition is presented to me and deal with it on those terms. The Minimal Standards Project will move ahead, perhaps with less investment by the Hapkido community in general. However, it WILL move ahead. I encourage you to do the same. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

No, Stuart. What I said was NOT a put-down. It was an invitation to eat a "reality sandwich". I think Rudy is right on the money.

Its no big secret that I have a lot of respect for Rudy, JR West, Alain (Burrese) and a number of other prominent figures in the Hapkido community. It would be my fervent hope that if I could get the ball rolling on some initiative that they might join it. But Rudy makes a very valid point. Whether or not people want to pitch-in, the need is still great. I have no intention of waiting for larger figures than I to validate what needs to be done, and I invite you to do the same. Its enough that we make sure that folks are aware of what we are working on such that individuals who are interested will be attracted.I will probably post up-dates of the Minimal Standards Project and solicit opinions and suggestions. I have no intention of waiting until somebody elects to touch me with their particular wand. As we are all affirming, there is a strong need for independent action in the KMA, and people are going protect their individuality before worrying about the good of the Hapkido arts overall. Sad, but true. Applying the Water Principle of Hapkido I take whatever condition is presented to me and deal with it on those terms. The Minimal Standards Project will move ahead, perhaps with less investment by the Hapkido community in general. However, it WILL move ahead. I encourage you to do the same. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

A reality sandwich I do indeed have, I need and would like help, guidance, etc from the leaders or any other instructors never the less.

I suspect you want help with the standards project as per your posts.

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce and Stuart:
I believe you both have lofty ideas. Keep them going, and soon enough people will begin to realize that you are doing something worth while assisting you with. Once the initial goals have been set in place, it is easier for folks to jump in, because right now the plan is just too vague. With room for jumping to conclusions, people sure enough will. When they do, it might be totally different to what you really have in mind. So the bickering goes on instead of moving ahead.

Once you have a solid plan, then throw it back out there to see how it is accepted. Be open minded enough to understand that there are lots of genuinly interested people out there who might not fit the ideal mold you first had in mind. Here are some thoughts to consider. They are meant to help not to put you down.

#1 Identify the issues that make you want to do what you are doing.
#2 Indentify the group you wish to help.
#3 State you purposes and intent as clear as you can.
#4 Be flexible enough to make changes as you get more input.
#5 Be confident enough in your project to avoid "NEEDING" others to OK it.


Use private messages to sort out the ground work, in order to avoid getting ground down with details that are not on your immediate agenda. If they are of "some" importance, put them on hold for now. Don't discard things just because you have not had time or enough input to make intelligent decisions about them.

For example. Your statement of who you wish to help (Choi and Ji followers) might not have been exactly what you had in mind; however, once said, it caused some folks to back away, because they are excluded.

A simple solution is to come right out and TELL people: " Look, I have not had a chance to ponder or get enough input on this, would you mind if we got to that later."

What you are saying/doing right now is being scrutinezed by many. Any wrong thing you say and/or do will be part of the way folks come to think of you. They will make decisions about your qualifications as leader etc. etc. based on incomplete information. These things will come back to bite you as you move along. Indeed, they may make or break the project (and you). Why alienate folks while you have not had a chance to really figure out what exactly you have in mind and how you can implement it???

Please take my comments as they are intended.. to help you avoid some of the pitfalls I met along the way. No sense making the same mistakes I made thirty some years ago neh.