Opinions on these books.

[Jag]

I am not trying to belittle you. Your post kind of shows that you do not know what you are getting into when you train in a Bujinkan dojo and you may be disapointed because of your preconceived notions.

*ahem* Notice the term "beginner" I use all of the time when I reference myself? I don't know what to expect when I enter a Bujinkan Dojo - never been in one. I don't have any preconceived notions about anything. I know what I've read in the various books back at the beginning of this thread, and even if it doesn't play a large role, or any role, the things I listed are a part of Ninjutsu.

Seriously, most Bujinkan dojos teach unarmed stuff 90 percent of the time. Add in sticks and you are up to about 99 percent of the time. Not much stealth or survival or anything else you listed.

Perhaps our interpretations of "survival" are different. In my opinion, being able to defend ones self is a survival tactic, and quite an effective one at that. I'm also very well aware of the small amount of time spent on Weapon traing, but I'm ok with. My two focuses are, and have been, Hand to Hand & Staff. I've been interested in Ninjutsu for over 2 years, I just haven't had the time or ability to get any real training. Now that I do, I'm just running into problems at every angle.

It is a good art. But if you are looking for a mystical commando type, you will be disapointed. If you did not like karate because it dealt mainly with just throwing punches and kicks, I don't think you will be any happier in a Bujinkan dojo. If you are only looking for a good art to study, keep your mind open and don't discount the idea of other arts.

First off, "mystic commando" is the farthest thing from my mind. I don't know about anyone else, but I hardly plan on running into any undead super-dragons or an army of demons any time soon. I am drawn to Ninjutsu, I may not really know why, but I know that I will train in Ninjutsu, and make no mistake I plan to train hard and hopefully in the best ways possible. I'm not some 16 year old kid who just finished Ninja Gaiden and wants to go kill demons with my mad wall jumping skills. I want to learn Ninjutsu, the history, the techniques, all of it. I'm quite interested in the history by the way, I find it to be quite a fascinating look into human evolution, and will.

That is not belittling. That is just my experience talking. I see a lot of people come into the art thinking that they will start off learning throwing stars and how to sneak into places. Most of them leave disapointed. I think people should look at a Bujinkan dojo with open eyes and no preconcieved notions about the art. If they like what they see, then great.

Perhaps "belittling" is too strong a term. I just got the feeling from your last post that you where... shooing away an annoying dog. Go on, shoo - that's right, go chase a car stupid mutt.

I don't expect to learn how to throw stars in my first class, or even in my first year of classes, and I'm ok with that. I think the big thing here is that you have a preconceived notion that I have a preconceived notion - which I don't. I am more than willing to walk into a Dojo and do what my teacher tells me, and not be dissapointed in however "uncool" it may be.

I will again admit that I don't really know what I'm doing. I have a few hurdles in my way in order to figure it out as well. However, I'm not going to just give up on something I've wanted for so long just because some guy on a forum said he thought I should - no offense of course, but my point remains.

I've been drawn to REAL Ninjutsu for about 2 years, and I'm finally getting the chance to actually move into it - so I may make a few mistakes, ask a few dumb questions, or buy a few less than great books - I'm here to learn, and that's what I'm going to do.

I don't want you to think that I'm just being stubborn, or that I don't respect your opinions, I do. I just am not going to "give up" on Ninjutsu.

 

[Blade of the East]

Sorry, I thought one of your books was written by ashida kim, but I am wrong. Please excuse the mistake. I am glad that you are going to train in ninjitsu. It is easy to get caught up in the movie image of ninjitsu, but from the sound of it you are willing to expect the "real nijitsu". Once you are able to start with classes let us know how they went. I am very interested in hearing about them.

Good Luck with your training

 

[Carol]

So, maybe you should look at other arts and teachers in the area. You may find that they don't have uniforms as cool as ours (black is so easy to assessorize with) but you will find they are just as good as ninjutsu.

Eh, you Ninjas aren't the only ones with a black uniform sir. And yeah....very very easy to accessorise with...except for that matching belt


Jag,

If Mr. Roley wanted you to "go away" I don't think he would have bothered to respond to you at all. Not everyone in the arts is warm and fuzzy...don't take it personally. All arts need optimistic novices to want to train in them...without them, the arts would die out. And no novice should be expected to know what they are doing...that is what training is for.

There are a few things in common in martial arts...we strike, block and kick. In all seiousness, since you don't have a ninjutsu school in your area, why not consider training in another art until you move in a year or so?

When you begin studying any martial art, you will learn some basics that can be transferred to any art. In addition, you will gain some insight which can only be achieved by training with an instructor: insight in to your own body as to what you do well and what you don't to well.

Example: I paired with a female in my class for roundhouse kick drills a couple months ago. We each had small pads to hold. We are both right handed and both the same rank. One might think that we performed similarly on this drill. We didn't. She has a monstrous right round kick that could take off my shoulder. Her left round kick barely makes contact with the pad. By comparison...my round kicks are probably average for our rank...only...my left round kick is rather strong, and my right round kick is a bit weaker. Two women, right side dominant, training for roughly the same amount of time. Very very different results.

This is all stuff that you can bring to ninjutsu when you have the opportunity to properly train. Plus, you will have the added advantage of showing a potential instructor that you are serious about martial arts, having already established the discipline of training in another art. Training in another art doesn't make you less-dedicated to ninjutsu...it will probably make you more dedicated by maximizin the use of your time and maximizing your martial arts knowledges and experiences.

Time spent in the Arts is not time lost, even if it is not the art of your choice. If for some reason I had to be seperated from my art from a period of time, I would be fervently finding another art, even for the interim, so I could keep training and keep active.

At my school, we had a college student from another country come to the Boston area for a semester to study. He joined our school for 3 months. No prior training or anything, but he did have an interest (as well as some college coursework) in physical education. He made for an amazing student....and did more in 3 months than perhaps I've been able to do in a year.

I don't know if these ideas help or not...but personally, I think you will make one heck of a student once you find an instructor.

 

[Don Roley]

There are a few things in common in martial arts...we strike, block and kick. In all seiousness, since you don't have a ninjutsu school in your area, why not consider training in another art until you move in a year or so?

When you begin studying any martial art, you will learn some basics that can be transferred to any art.

Ok Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now. :whip:

This is actually one of the things I see as a big problem in the Bujinkan.

There are things done in many arts, but there is also a lot that differs in very subtle but important ways.

Let me give an example. If you look at the tires on my car, the tires of a truck and the tires of a F-1 formula racer, you will see there is some very important differences. They are all pretty much round, black with a hole in the center. But they are all very different in what they are supposed to do. It is not an arbitrary thing. These differences are built from the base up and manifest at every level of the vehicle- even down to the tires. You can't take the tires off of one and put it on the other. :apv:

Note that I am not saying that one vehicle is superior to another. What is the best vehicle? It depends if you need to haul kids, soil or *** down the road. If you try to haul dirt in the racer you will fail- period. And you can't take the tires off of the truck and put it on the racer to try to haul soil.

In martial arts, we all are born in an idea of dealing with violence. But even that differs a great amount. Good arts tend to have a central principle and build around it rather than trying to do everything, none of it very well. This manifests itself in things like how they generate power, use the legs, angles and timing. All those fun things and more.

For good reason, an art may be primarily a striking art and its central philosophy and way of doing things may require it to have very light footwork as it circles around and darts in and out like a lighting bolt. Another art may be built more around the idea of throwing and have more rooted stances with movements that flow more around the attack or the defense of the other guy in order to get inside to where you can set up the throw. This is going to have a huge impact on everything from the top to bottom of how it hits, uses the body and everything else.

Neither is wrong, but there is a hell of a lot of possibility doing something wrong if you try to take the tires from one vehicle and try to put them on another. You can't take things in a void. Sumo wrestlers and Systema guys both slap people silly but very differently for very good reasons. I have been slapped by both and neither is fun, but the follow up in both arts differ and the intended result of the slap reflect that. Do you want to drive the guy back a bit, get him off balance so that you can toss him to the ground or out of the ring or do you want to keep up the attacks one after another while keeping yourself free to deal with a modern battlefield by drawing weapons and engaging multiple attackers?:machgunr:

There are differences in martial arts, and seeing them even if they are very subtle is so important I can't put it into words. Even in the arts that make up the Bujinkan there are things that differ and trying to do something from one school fouls up the follow up to something from another. And you can imagine just how much trouble there can be if someone brings in habits from outside the Bujinkan. I have seen guys that move like they are still in karate, Wing Chung, judo or other arts instead of moving like a Bujinkan member IMO. They do some of the gross movements, but miss the things like which leg generates power or whether a punch is supposed to damage or affect the balance.

And of course, this is why I am so suspicious of people that create their own arts. They seem to take a little of one, some from another and stitch everything together to end up with Frankenstein's monster. And it is a reason why I think that this art really has trouble outside of Japan where a lot of instructors seem to have gotten their entire training at seminars and carry their old habits from other arts into what they do in the Bujinkan. And don't get me started on people that pick things up from videos or other people's notes from the internet. Shinden Fudo ryu done with a karate flavor makes me either want to barf or kill someone. :tantrum:

Sorry to jump up and down on you like this. But I do think that it needs to be known that each art has something unique to it and it is that thing which makes it special. If you know it, you can work with it and outside of it. Lao Tzu said that the value of a wheel is in the void that is not there. As long as you know there are differences, you can deal with them. But when you try to do a karate block with a Takagi Yoshin ryu kata, you are doing the same thing as trying to fit a truck tire onto your Ferrari.

 

[Carol]

Ok Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now. :whip:

You can try, but my hand-eye is damn good... :duel:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and maybe even all of it.

Consider the thoughfulness that you are seeing. What makes someone take the time to seek out an a voice of experience and get their opinion? It's someone that not only really wants something enough to go get it....they also want to do it right. Not only that sir...standing up to you :whip: takes a bit of resiliency. A good quality for a ninja, yes?


Personally, I don't have a very linear view of success. There is a lot of tradition to making an action plan, setting goals, and sticking to them. It's the purest way to succeed. But it is not the only way to succeed. Some routes aren't visible from one's driveway, they can only be seen once one gets on the highway and starts driving. :tank:

If my nephew wanted to race like Danica Patrick, the best thing for him would be to learn from an Indy car instructor. Unfortunately there aren't any around where I am. So, I could tell my nephew that....sorry guy, no can do. You can't race, because I can't find you an instructor.

Is that going to kill his desire to race? I kinda doubt it. But...it does mean that his interest goes unchecked. I really don't want the call from the state police saying he was picked up for drag racing. I don't want him following his desire by hanging out with wanna-bes. That gets dangerous, in more ways than one.

I can find him a stock car instructor. He may hate stock cars, and quit entirely. Or, stock cars becomes his motivation to do whatever it is that he's gotta do for himself to get in to an Indy car.

He may start racing stock cars and find an Indy car instructor he wouldn't have found had he not been at the track every day. Or maybe he he gets so absorbed in the mechanics of it...he discoveres his real calling is in the pits...or building engines...and not necessarily behind the wheel. Or he might race stock cars and be enthralled with what he is doing...and loses himself to the passion of it all.

Sorry to jump up and down on you like this. But I do think that it needs to be known that each art has something unique to it and it is that thing which makes it special.

Doesn't feel like I'm being jumped on. I agree with you. If he does go to race Indy cars, he'll have to learn how to drive all over again. He'll have to learn different rules, wear different gear, and use different techniques. Absolutely it's different. :iws:

And look at how it can be applied. How many students can try something new KNOWING where their potential trouble spots may be? How many teachers can take on a student KNOWING what their bad habits may be? Most of us have to find this out the hard way sir.

:CTF:

A potentially self-directed noviciate also risks harm to the art...and may even risk harm to the novice under bad circumstances.

Tough challenge.

 

[Bigshadow]

There are things done in many arts, but there is also a lot that differs in very subtle but important ways.

Let me give an example. If you look at the tires on my car, the tires of a truck and the tires of a F-1 formula racer, you will see there is some very important differences. They are all pretty much round, black with a hole in the center. But they are all very different in what they are supposed to do. It is not an arbitrary thing. These differences are built from the base up and manifest at every level of the vehicle- even down to the tires. You can't take the tires off of one and put it on the other. :apv:

Great analogy, nicely said Don! :asian: This also applies to the other thread I had been discussing the efficacy of more subtle (less visible to the 'nekkid' eye) aspects of this art.

 

[Bigshadow]

Speaking of books...

I am reading Bud Malstrom's "Warriorship - Life lessons of a martial artist". Any thoughts? I am about half way through it. I definitely connect with many aspects of the book, thus far. I really liked the chapter regarding discipline. I found this chapter to be quite profound, enough so, that I am re-examining my own personal discipline in some areas of my life, where I feel in less control of things.

 

[malenko]

Don Roley= well spoken & hillarious.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Speaking of books...

I am reading Bud Malstrom's "Warriorship - Life lessons of a martial artist". Any thoughts? I am about half way through it. I definitely connect with many aspects of the book, thus far. I really liked the chapter regarding discipline. I found this chapter to be quite profound, enough so, that I am re-examining my own personal discipline in some areas of my life, where I feel in less control of things.

Hey Dave,

I like that book as well. I have not read it recently but it captivated me enough that I remember reading it in one sitting.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Bigshadow]

Hey Dave,

I like that book as well. I have not read it recently but it captivated me enough that I remember reading it in one sitting.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Wow, I wish I could sit that long or I must read slow.

I finished it this weekend! It was good. There was more in there that I was impressed with. Now I am reading "The Martial Way". So far Morgan brings up some good points. It really isn't Bujinkan related, but might be budo related (which I am hoping so). So far so good.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wow, I wish I could sit that long or I must read slow.

I finished it this weekend! It was good. There was more in there that I was impressed with. Now I am reading "The Martial Way". So far Morgan brings up some good points. It really isn't Bujinkan related, but might be budo related (which I am hoping so). So far so good.

Well I do not read that fast but when I like a book and it is captivating I will sometimes start after dinner and stay up all night to read it! That way it hardly impacts the family life!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Cryozombie]

"The Martial Way". So far Morgan brings up some good points.

Id say thats a good choice in reading materials.

 

[Bigshadow]

Well I do not read that fast but when I like a book and it is captivating I will sometimes start after dinner and stay up all night to read it! That way it hardly impacts the family life!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Hey there is an idea... I can certainly understand impacting the family life.

 

[Bigshadow]

Bumping this one up for some new folks who might be interested in books.