Opinions on 1step sparring?

[Juany118]

There is a saying, If you can't do is slow, you can't do it fast and that is what that kind of training is about. After you execute the technique you can stop and you and your instructor can look and see if you did it right or wrong.

Think of them as if you are engaged in stop motion photography. As has been stated though, some students fail to keep this in mind and thus end up creating bad habits and either keep their arm stuck out or expect it to be so in sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can't do is slow, you can't do it fast .

My thinking is complete the opposite. I prefer to be

- fast and 50% correct, than
- slow and 100% correct.

The best product is not a product that has 0 defect. The best product is a product that has the least amount defect but affordable.

Fighting is like

- thread a needle during lighting strike (1/100 second?).
- someone stabs a dagger toward your chest (1/10 second?), or
- your shirt is catching on fire (1 second?).

You will have very little time to react.

 

[Juany118]

My thinking is complete the opposite. I prefer to be

- fast and 50% correct, than
- slow and 100% correct.

The best product is not a product that has 0 defect. The best product is a product that has the least amount defect but affordable.

Fighting is like

- thread a needle during lighting strike.
- your shirt is catching on fire, or
- someone stabs a dagger toward your chest.

You will have 1/10 second to react.

It's about base training, if you can do it 100% correct when slow you build the margin for error when you do it fast. Without that base, when you do it fast, 50% right is likely the best case scenario and even that is likely to get you hurt.

I have more than enough experience in actual fights to have learned this point the hard way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's about base training, if you can do it 100% correct when slow you build the margin for error when you do it fast.

To expect slow training is the same as fast training is not realistic. Too many people who train slow and never train fast but think they can move fast.

In my school, we start fast training on day one. They may not be able to do it 100% correct. But if they stay long enough, they will be "polished".

Here is the training speed that we used in my school. We won't slow down for beginners. Speed is the 1st thing that they had to learn on day one.

 

[Juany118]

To expect slow training is the same as fast training is not realistic. Too many people who train slow and never train fast but think they can move fast.

In my school, we start fast training on day one. They may not be able to do it 100% correct. But if they stay long enough, they will be "polished".

Here is the training speed that we used in my school. We won't slow down for beginners. Speed is the 1st thing that they had to learn on day one.

Did I say never train fast? Nope I didn't. I said it was your BASE. So you start slow training and progressively speed up to being "fast". Not only does this make for faster practical application because you teach your body how to move correctly up front, rather than sloppily and then "polish" later (which often also requires ingraining bad habits), but it also helps prevent your novice student from getting hurt or hurting others.

 

[FlamingJulian]

To expect slow training is the same as fast training is not realistic. Too many people who train slow and never train fast but think they can move fast.

In my school, we start fast training on day one. They may not be able to do it 100% correct. But if they stay long enough, they will be "polished".

Here is the training speed that we used in my school. We won't slow down for beginners. Speed is the 1st thing that they had to learn on day one.

I don't think it's about them not being able to move fast, more not being able to think fast. And yeah I have mixed thoughts on training speeds. I've just been trying to figure out techniques of my own a little more.


-Julian

 

[Hanzou]

One steps are fine as long as they don't replace full contact sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My thinking is complete the opposite. I prefer to be

- fast and 50% correct, than
- slow and 100% correct.

The best product is not a product that has 0 defect. The best product is a product that has the least amount defect but affordable.

Fighting is like

- thread a needle during lighting strike (1/100 second?).
- someone stabs a dagger toward your chest (1/10 second?), or
- your shirt is catching on fire (1 second?).

You will have very little time to react.

I disagree. Fast and 50% correct while training is likely to yield faster (and worse timing) and 25% correct in a defensive situation. Slow(er) is how you develop the structure and set up the muscle memory. If someone is really struggling with a principle, often I can fix it by making them go painfully slow until they get the movement and timing right, then work on speeding them back up. If they go really fast, there's little chance they'll have any idea what they did, so I can't really help them fix it.

I use this with both striking and grappling techniques, though I do find it more necessary with grappling. With striking, moderate speed is usually easier for folks to get to without major errors.

Add to that the safety issue. With many grappling techniques (and, to a lesser degree, many striking techniques) there's a real chance of injury to their partner if they wander off into a different technique, which many inexperienced students do when they go too fast. And since they are inexperienced, they don't have the "feel" for when to back off a technique to avoid injuring a partner.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To expect slow training is the same as fast training is not realistic. Too many people who train slow and never train fast but think they can move fast.

In my school, we start fast training on day one. They may not be able to do it 100% correct. But if they stay long enough, they will be "polished".

Here is the training speed that we used in my school. We won't slow down for beginners. Speed is the 1st thing that they had to learn on day one.

So, when you teach a wrist lock, you just have them go at it at their full speed (which, with some beginners is actually faster than good technique will ever require, IME) and hope they don't do any harm? And you just throw them for the first time at full speed and hope they survive?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Slow(er) is how you develop the structure and set up the muscle memory.

We are talking about different training methods. I do know the fast training work. I don't know whether the slow training work or not because I don't have slow training experience.

When my teacher taught me one move, he expected me to use it on the mat next day (he lived in my house at that time). I didn't have the time to build up muscle memory. When I saw an opportunity, I had to try my move even if my move was not perfect yet. After I had catched that timing, I could spend the next 10 years (or even longer) to build up muscle memory and make it perfect.

The throwing art training can be different from the striking art training. It's OK to throw a slow punch. It's not OK to execute a slow throw that your opponent's body rotated half way in the air and crash down to the ground without completing the "full body rotation".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And you just throw them for the first time at full speed and hope they survive?

I only let old student to throw new student (before new students are good in break fall). All old students know how to protect their opponents in throw.

I can event throw my opponent with "hip throw" without letting his body to touch the ground (hold him in my arms like holding a baby). I can also throw my opponent down, put my hand behind his head, so his head won't hit on the ground.

 

[Juany118]

We are talking about different training methods. I do know the fast training work. I don't know whether the slow training work or not because I don't have slow training experience.

When my teacher taught me one move, he expected me to use it on the mat next day (he lived in my house at that time). I didn't have the time to build up muscle memory. When I saw an opportunity, I had to try my move even if my move was not perfect yet. After I had catched that timing, I could spend the next 10 years (or even longer) to build up muscle memory and make it perfect.

The throwing art training can be different from the striking art training. It's OK to throw a slow punch. It's not OK to execute a slow throw that your opponent's body rotated half way in the air and crash down to the ground without completing the "full body rotation".

Then, not trying to sound like an *******, you don't know what a full speed throw does irl application because it can often result in ambulance trips.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Then, not trying to sound like an *******, you don't know what a full speed throw does irl application because it can often result in ambulance trips.

Trying to sound like what?

If you do both slow training (I do slow running too) and fast training, we have nothing to argue about here. I just don't agree with 100% slow training and 0% fast training. I also shared my fast training experience.

In the past 36 years of my throwing art teaching, there was no injury from the throwing training. We trained in the university big wrestling hall with good wrestling mat.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which teaching method is better?

You teach one technique to your student.

1. You help him to develop body memory and make his technique perfect. But you never expect him to use it.

2. You force him to use it in the ring or on the mat next day. After he has the courage and intelligent to make it work, you then help him to develop body memory and make it perfect.

IMO, I like method 2 better.

 

[drop bear]

So, when you teach a wrist lock, you just have them go at it at their full speed (which, with some beginners is actually faster than good technique will ever require, IME) and hope they don't do any harm? And you just throw them for the first time at full speed and hope they survive?

Drop seonagi? There had to be a bit of pep for that one to work. (however that is spelled)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Drop seonagi? There had to be a bit of pep for that one to work. (however that is spelled)

To use the wrist lock to set up a shoulder throw is a good combo.

 

[Buka]

One step sparring is like one step running.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are talking about different training methods. I do know the fast training work. I don't know whether the slow training work or not because I don't have slow training experience.

When my teacher taught me one move, he expected me to use it on the mat next day (he lived in my house at that time). I didn't have the time to build up muscle memory. When I saw an opportunity, I had to try my move even if my move was not perfect yet. After I had catched that timing, I could spend the next 10 years (or even longer) to build up muscle memory and make it perfect.

The throwing art training can be different from the striking art training. It's OK to throw a slow punch. It's not OK to execute a slow throw that your opponent's body rotated half way in the air and crash down to the ground without completing the "full body rotation".

Mine is a throwing art. Fully 80-90% of what we do is throwing. And, yes, it is perfectly okay to throw slow, so long as you understand how to compensate that in the fall. Some throws don't really allow for slow without a spotter, so are easier to do at moderate speed and faster. For most, there's no problem doing them even at creepingly slow speeds.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Trying to sound like what?

If you do both slow training (I do slow running too) and fast training, we have nothing to argue about here. I just don't agree with 100% slow training and 0% fast training. I also shared my fast training experience.

In the past 36 years of my throwing art teaching, there was no injury from the throwing training. We trained in the university big wrestling hall with good wrestling mat.

I don't think anyone has even mentioned 100% slow training. We've referred repeatedly to starting slow and using slow to fix errors.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which teaching method is better?

You teach one technique to your student.

1. You help him to develop body memory and make his technique perfect. But you never expect him to use it.

2. You force him to use it in the ring or on the mat next day. After he has the courage and intelligent to make it work, you then help him to develop body memory and make it perfect.

IMO, I like method 2 better.

I don't like either. Forcing a student to use something live the next day will tend to cause him to force the technique when he doesn't yet understand the principles. Then you later have to fix all the errors he develops. Doing it only slow and expecting it to ever get perfect is probably worse.