Open Hand Techniques

[TKDTony2179]

The most common open hand technique is the palm heel. Seem like every reality based art will teach the palm heel but that is the only open hand you see. You rarely see the rigid hand, spear hand, knife hand, or open back hand taught out side of a traditional school.

Question. Are the open hand techniques obsolete? Are they too risky to teach the student to use? Or is it the hard training of striking a hard surface 100 times to make it tougher a yester years thing?

Do YOU yourself still use the open hand techs when sparring or when teaching self-defense?

I know this is a closed fist but what about the back fist? Do any of you guys still use this or do you just simply use a jab?

Let me know what you think?

 

[K-man]

If you go back to the time before karate went into the schools, probably most of it would have been open hand. Apart from the obvious Shuto or knife hand there is the opposite hand surface, ridge hand or Haito. We use both of these often in our training along with the palm heel strike. The one we don't use is the Nukite or finger strike. Too much conditioning is required to really make it practical for self defence.

So for us, yes we use open hands in our training and sparring all the time. :asian:

 

[Dirty Dog]

We regularly teach and use everything but the spear hand. The conditioning of the fingers is not something most people are going to do, and understandably so.
Even the spear hand strikes get some teaching, though. Against soft targets (say, the eyes) a fingertip strike is your best bet.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Yes, I would say the samething. We do teach the open hand techs but only the ridge and palm heel are ever seen. All the others are just used in tuls. I don't think I will be usin a spear hand in sparring as well as any other open hand strike. maybe a two eyed poke would be good for self-defense if the attributes allow it.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, I would say the samething. We do teach the open hand techs but only the ridge and palm heel are ever seen. All the others are just used in tuls. I don't think I will be usin a spear hand in sparring as well as any other open hand strike. maybe a two eyed poke would be good for self-defense if the attributes allow it.

Knifehands are pretty handy (eheheh). Eye pokes are useful under some circumstances, but they can also just provoke a more hostile response, as will any attack to the eyes that doesnt physically disable the other person.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The most common open hand technique is the palm heel. Seem like every reality based art will teach the palm heel but that is the only open hand you see. You rarely see the rigid hand, spear hand, knife hand, or open back hand taught out side of a traditional school.

With respect, this isn't accurate. Reality based arts such as WWII combatives regularly teaches many of these strikes, though the names are a bit different. For example, the palm heel is commonly referred to as the chin jab. The knife hand is referred to as the edge-of-hand and the thumb is usually taught in the extended position. Another common strike is the hammer fist. These are all high % strikes which is why they were included in the program. Spear hand strikes do require some finger conditioning if used in the manner commonly taught. However, I would submit that the spear hand strike isn't actually a spear hand strike in kata, rather it is an EOH (edge-of-hand) strike. But that is a different thread altogether. In short, Reality based, WWII combatives, SD systems, DT systems etc do teach many of the more effective hand techniques. And don't forget about elbow strikes which is a staple of many of these systems.

 

[Manny]

I teach several hand techs doing the basics and I use open hand techs doing one steps and self defernse, I never use open hand techs doing kyorugy because the rule set we must have to adhere to do sparring is the WTF one.

My favorite hand techs are, reverse punch to the body and face (not much to the face), knife hand (shuto or han sonal mok chigui) to the neck,troat and temple, the palm heel (Ilove it) to the chin/noose/face and the dung chumok chigui to the temple/noose/jaw. We don't use so much the spear hand because fingers are prone to broke.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

With respect, this isn't accurate. Reality based arts such as WWII combatives regularly teaches many of these strikes, though the names are a bit different. For example, the palm heel is commonly referred to as the chin jab. The knife hand is referred to as the edge-of-hand and the thumb is usually taught in the extended position. Another common strike is the hammer fist. These are all high % strikes which is why they were included in the program. Spear hand strikes do require some finger conditioning if used in the manner commonly taught. However, I would submit that the spear hand strike isn't actually a spear hand strike in kata, rather it is an EOH (edge-of-hand) strike. But that is a different thread altogether. In short, Reality based, WWII combatives, SD systems, DT systems etc do teach many of the more effective hand techniques. And don't forget about elbow strikes which is a staple of many of these systems.

I forgot to add that many SD systems (WWII combatives, H2H, DT etc) also employ two-handed strikes such as the 'cow-catcher' which is a block as well as a two-handed chin jab. There is the 'ram' which is basically another block as well as a two-armed forearm strike. Then there is a 'wedge-block' which is vertical forearm strike/knee spike when blocking an incoming attack while simultaneously moving in on someone. There is also the 'O'Neill cover' which protects the head but can also set you up to deliver an elbow spike. All are gross motor skill based and work with the flinch response. Very effective for those working in high liability areas, which in turn makes it effective for Joe Public as well.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I teach several hand techs doing the basics and I use open hand techs doing one steps and self defernse, I never use open hand techs doing kyorugy because the rule set we must have to adhere to do sparring is the WTF one.

My favorite hand techs are, reverse punch to the body and face (not much to the face), knife hand (shuto or han sonal mok chigui) to the neck,troat and temple, the palm heel (Ilove it) to the chin/noose/face and the dung chumok chigui to the temple/noose/jaw. We don't use so much the spear hand because fingers are prone to broke.

Manny

I am not too familiar with the korean lanugage. I don't use many open hand techs in sparring but when I do it is the ridge to the body, open hand slap to the head (back or palm side), and that is it.

 

[TKDTony2179]

With respect, this isn't accurate. Reality based arts such as WWII combatives regularly teaches many of these strikes, though the names are a bit different. For example, the palm heel is commonly referred to as the chin jab. The knife hand is referred to as the edge-of-hand and the thumb is usually taught in the extended position. Another common strike is the hammer fist. These are all high % strikes which is why they were included in the program. Spear hand strikes do require some finger conditioning if used in the manner commonly taught. However, I would submit that the spear hand strike isn't actually a spear hand strike in kata, rather it is an EOH (edge-of-hand) strike. But that is a different thread altogether. In short, Reality based, WWII combatives, SD systems, DT systems etc do teach many of the more effective hand techniques. And don't forget about elbow strikes which is a staple of many of these systems.

I would have to see a kata that would use a edge of hand as a stabbing motion.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I do think that in time that most stuff that is taught in forms will come to past and won't be taught outside the form or in sparring or self-defense because or risk of injury for the defender or just doesn't really work.

 

[K-man]

I do think that in time that most stuff that is taught in forms will come to past and won't be taught outside the form or in sparring or self-defense because or risk of injury for the defender or just doesn't really work.

That may well be the case with TKD but Goju without the kata would no longer be Goju. :asian:

 

[TKDTony2179]

That may well be the case with TKD but Goju without the kata would no longer be Goju. :asian:

No, I am saying that what is taught in form (as in a spear hand thrust) may not be taught in sparring because of risk of injury. I think their is a place for a kata/tul but at the same time most people don't have time to hard body train (ironing) for combat. They want something quick and effective. I do believe every art can be taught without forms. Muay Boran is the ancestor of Muay Thai. I do believe they have forms. But Muay Thai don't. It may not be GoJu ryu but you may call it Goju-te without forms. (Joke)

 

[Cirdan]

I don`t see any mutation in the human form that would render open hand techniques obsolete..

Shuto, heito, teisho, haishi, nukite, ipponken, uraken, tettsui, hiraken etc we use them all. The hand (and body) is a high tech weapon so only using it as a club makes no sense. As for conditioning, no thanks I`d rather improve sensitivity.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I don`t see any mutation in the human form that would render open hand techniques obsolete..

Shuto, heito, teisho, haishi, nukite, ipponken, uraken, tettsui, hiraken etc we use them all. The hand (and body) is a high tech weapon so only using it as a club makes no sense. As for conditioning, no thanks I`d rather improve sensitivity.

Are those japanese words? Not trying to affend you just making sure. What do you mean "as for conditioning, no thanks i'd rather improve sensitivity?" What art do you take?

Regardless of senitivity, I would think hitting an object would be both getting use to a certain sensitivity and conditioning for what ever you hit with to be strong.

 

[Cirdan]

Are those japanese words? Not trying to affend you just making sure. What do you mean "as for conditioning, no thanks i'd rather improve sensitivity?" What art do you take?

Regardless of senitivity, I would think hitting an object would be both getting use to a certain sensitivity and conditioning for what ever you hit with to be strong.

Yes those are the japanese names for various open handed techniques as well as some others like one knuckle strike and hammer fist.
Part of what we train is to improve sensitivity to better read the opponent, hard conditioning can have the opposite effect. We do use pads and train to take a hit however.
My main art is Wado Ryu. I am not sure I understand your last sentence about hitting an object.

 

[sopraisso]

Open hand techniques are not teached more regularly because most martial arts are not teached with practical self defense application in mind. Further, most instructors today don't really have a clue on what asian martial arts were about regarding to self-defense. What most people learned in karate was something very different from what it was in the old times of Okinawa, and the intent was actually no longer properly of teaching someone to fight. Of course that doesn't mean karate has become so bad, I think of it as more of an update to a new reality when it was brought from Okinawa to Japan.

As for taekwondo, it's based largely on the karate that was teached in Japan, the same "watered down" version, so the problem remains the same when it comes to using the art in self-defense. I don't mean that someone could not defend oneself with Japanese karate or with taekwondo, I'm sure they can. But the methods used today are not optimal to make the student achieve the skill necessary.

Further, as most instructors didn't really understand traditional methods of self-defense, they stuck to what seemed "strong" to them (or at least what they knew how to use), that is, the closed fist. I'm sure the advent of tournaments have influenced this preference, and western culture -- with boxing, for example -- may also have influenced (you wouldn't be as effective with open hand techniques when wearing boxing gloves). Many techniques were forbidden in tournaments and probably this lead to a dicrease in the emphasis on those techniques, too. Open hand techniques are very efficient when it comes to self-defense, but one has to understand how to use them, that's just it. And yes, a little bit of conditioning is good, but the same can be said about the two-first-knuckles closed fist (seiken in karate). One big mistake is many people don't understand the radical difference between sport sparring (no matter the ruleset) and self-defense, and so they think what is not useful in sparring is not useful in self-defense.

Finally, I use ridge hand, backfist, knife hand and hammer fist as often (or more often) as the more "common" closed fist when sparring in my classes, and I teach my students about those techniques (I also mention spear hand and one/two finger thrusts, but we don't use them in sparring once we aim them at fragile areas of the body -- but we represent the use of them to show they could've been used). I teach KKW taekwondo classes, and all of those techniques are included in KKW syllabus, so nobody can tell me I'm making up things when I teach taekwondo. But that focus on open hand techniques is really particular of my own classes (I'm not the school owner), and also due to the fact that our sparring is focused on learning skills, not on getting points, and thus we don't use any particular rule set -- instead we adapt the sparring scenario to the skill we wish to improve in each session.

One last thing is... the biggest mistake in my opinion on understanding traditional martial arts is the fact that people don't understand forms are mere "formal representations" (that should be obvious, but most don't get it). Instead, they take them literally and try to use the movements exactly as shown in the forms (by the way, today's forms are deluted versions of old forms, and that's relevant, too), don't even thinking of why the movement is shown like that in the forms. So when you have a long front stance that doesn't mean you'll open your legs like that -- instead, you'll understand and use the principle of the stance, that is putting your weight in the front part of your body and putting your weight behind your movement so the movement can be stronger in the forward direction (of course there are other uses for front stance, this is just an example). Every movement in traditional forms teach you really how to fight, not only with simple attacking or blocking techniques, but also with principles, strategies and tactics related to self-defense fighting.