On the management of risk in a society...

[Makalakumu]

In recent threads, we have been discussing the management of risk in society. I've noticed that some people completely support some kinds of risks that people take and other people are totally against those risks. When we measure actual damage based on the risk and we calculate the danger, we come up with various descriptions of risk. Then, it is proposed, that we should make a law as a society in order to manage this risk.

This is a very interesting proposition. Whether we are talking about seatbelts, helmets, guns, drugs, or terrorism, we are proposing that we can force our view of risk on others. Do you agree with this proposition? If so, which risks do you think need to be managed in this fashion? If not, how do you think society should manage risk?

 

[jezr74]

Do you mean on a clean law slate, to level the field for this topic?

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[Makalakumu]

Do you mean on a clean law slate, to level the field for this topic?

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I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[Drasken]

In recent threads, we have been discussing the management of risk in society. I've noticed that some people completely support some kinds of risks that people take and other people are totally against those risks. When we measure actual damage based on the risk and we calculate the danger, we come up with various descriptions of risk. Then, it is proposed, that we should make a law as a society in order to manage this risk.

This is a very interesting proposition. Whether we are talking about seatbelts, helmets, guns, drugs, or terrorism, we are proposing that we can force our view of risk on others. Do you agree with this proposition? If so, which risks do you think need to be managed in this fashion? If not, how do you think society should manage risk?

My ideas are very controversial. I believe that if you aren't harming anyone but yourself, you should not be forced to do anything. For example, seatbelts. If I choose to not wear a seatbelt, it is my own decision. I have to live with, or not live with as the case may be, the consequences of that decision. I have always worn a seatbelt because it was an intelligent decision made by myself. It was also pushed upon me as a child by my parents who taught me WHY it was important.
But if someone refuses to wear a seatbelt, how much danger is anyone but that person in? When you are an adult and can make your own decisions? Have at it. Your stupidity ( as long as you're harming nobody else ) is your problem.

If I own a gun, or knife, or sword, or anything. And I hurt myself out of stupidity... Well if I live, hopefully I learned something from it. If I hurt someone else and it was unjustified? Well I just gave up my right to own a weapon and should deal with a harsh penalty.

My belief is that your rights should not be limited or taken for any reason, other than harming or showing provable intent and attempt to harm or infringe upon the rights of others.
And I refuse to accept that my rights, or your rights, or anyone's rights for that matter, must be limited to protect the stupidity of others from causing themselves harm. You can attempt to slow them down, but eventually they will get hurt. Or worse. No matter what regulations are put in place.
Public awareness campaigns? Great. Taking away or limiting rights? No.

 

[K-man]

Most of the problem is the legal system. The way it works in Australia and the US nothing is ever my fault! I go skydiving, I twist my ankle walking to the plane, sue the airport. I go up to Queensland and jump in a river. A croc bites me. Not my fault. There wasn't a sign, sue the council. I go into the supermarket, see water on the floor, keep walking and slip and bruise my ****. No problem, sue the supermarket. No one is prepared to be responsible for their own actions.

New Zealand has it right. Something goes wrong .. my fault. I chose to do what I chose to do. It doesn't exclude negligence but it does prevent claims for accidental injury.

If I choose to practise a martial art and somebody smacks me in the mouth ... my fault. I should have moved out of the way.

When, as a society, we are prepared to take responsibility for our own actions, we will start to manage our own risks and society will benefit. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Mentioned above, seat belts. I don't mind paying for MY stupidity. But, what about the decision to not wear one as you sail through the windshield without Ins to cover your butt, who pays for that persons stupidity?

 

[Steve]

The problem with things like seat belts are that you won't necessarily off yourself. When you don't kill yourself through your stupidity, you often become a very expensive liability for the tax payers.

That said, my personal opinion is that we should as a community/country be more involved in how people raise their kids and less involved in how they manage themselves. If you don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fine. Take drugs, marry your gay partner, do freaky things that are currently illegal in some states. Do what you want, provided it doesn't harm others. For example, wanna take meth? Fine. Wanna make meth in your house? No way.

However, IMO, you SHOULD be made to buckle your kids up, etc.

I think there is an appropriate role for government. Right now, we have so many laws that are unnecessary. If we got rid of these laws, making fewer people criminals and sending them through the jail system, our courts and our jails would cost us less. That money is better spent on a single payer system, where we can treat meth addiction as a medical issue rather than as a criminal issue. Treat stupidity as a medical condition, too, when you sail through the windshield.

 

[ballen0351]

The problem with things like seat belts are that you won't necessarily off yourself. When you don't kill yourself through your stupidity, you often become a very expensive liability for the tax payers.

That said, my personal opinion is that we should as a community/country be more involved in how people raise their kids and less involved in how they manage themselves. If you don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fine. Take drugs, marry your gay partner, do freaky things that are currently illegal in some states. Do what you want, provided it doesn't harm others. For example, wanna take meth? Fine. Wanna make meth in your house? No way.

However, IMO, you SHOULD be made to buckle your kids up, etc.

I think there is an appropriate role for government. Right now, we have so many laws that are unnecessary. If we got rid of these laws, making fewer people criminals and sending them through the jail system, our courts and our jails would cost us less. That money is better spent on a single payer system, where we can treat meth addiction as a medical issue rather than as a criminal issue. Treat stupidity as a medical condition, too, when you sail through the windshield.

Why should we pay to treat a drug addiction if you choose to take the drugs? Shouldn't that be your responsibility to pay and seek treatment yourself. After all if were going to an anything goes as long as it doesn't effect anyone else then my paying for your treatment is effecting me.

 

[Tgace]

Seatbelts...anyone ever consider that being belted in keeps you in better control of a heavy piece of moving machinery if it makes a sudden movement? I have had to make sudden turns to avoid something that would have tossed me into the passenger seat if I wasn't belted in.

That's for the motoring publics safety as much as your own.

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[arnisador]

If I own a gun, or knife, or sword, or anything. And I hurt myself out of stupidity... Well if I live, hopefully I learned something from it. If I hurt someone else and it was unjustified? Well I just gave up my right to own a weapon and should deal with a harsh penalty.

Uh...no. You don't "just" give up your rights to a weapon. You've also hurt or killed somebody. That's really the big point here. It hurts other people.

And I refuse to accept that my rights, or your rights, or anyone's rights for that matter, must be limited to protect the stupidity of others from causing themselves harm.

We have food safety regulations and inspections to try to prevent the stupidity of a cook from causing food-borne illness in customers. There are legitimate public health issues out there. People causing themselves harm is unfortunate but I agree that people have a considerable right to be stupid. It's their lives. I want to be protected from the stupidity of others harming me, though, to the extent feasible. That too is a balance, but I really don't want my neighbor storing chemical weapons in his garage. His stupidity could take out a whole neighborhood.

You're choosing to live in a society if you live here. Societies have rules to better function. Don't like the very principle of govt. of, by, and for the people? Somalia welcomes you!

 

[arnisador]

Why should we pay to treat a drug addiction if you choose to take the drugs? Shouldn't that be your responsibility to pay and seek treatment yourself.

If it's an addiction, isn't that a medical condition?

 

[ballen0351]

If it's an addiction, isn't that a medical condition?

Can't be addicted if you never try it. You know drugs are bad and can be addictive so that's on you not my problem

 

[Steve]

Why should we pay to treat a drug addiction if you choose to take the drugs? Shouldn't that be your responsibility to pay and seek treatment yourself. After all if were going to an anything goes as long as it doesn't effect anyone else then my paying for your treatment is effecting me.

We pay for it anyway. It's not a choice. We just pay more because we treat the addiction AND we pay for the entire criminal side, too. Capture, charge, prosecute and jail. In addition to treating the medical condition we pay for their food, clothing and shelter for as long as they are in the court system.

 

[Steve]

Can't be addicted if you never try it. You know drugs are bad and can be addictive so that's on you not my problem

Ballen, come on. It's already illegal... has been for a long, long time. How's that working for us?

 

[Drasken]

Seatbelts...anyone ever consider that being belted in keeps you in better control of a heavy piece of moving machinery if it makes a sudden movement? I have had to make sudden turns to avoid something that would have tossed me into the passenger seat if I wasn't belted in.

That's for the motoring publics safety as much as your own.

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You make a good point. But it was just one example, and your point mostly applies to the driver.another one is that here in my area, helmets are encouraged but not required when riding a motorcycle. I would personally wear one, seen way too many accidents. But I don't believe you should be forced. There IS some merit to many regulations and laws. And I can readily admit to that. But I do also think that as a country we are overregulated. At very least, where the constitution is concerned.

Now I've seen people say that if someone wants to do drugs, fine whatever. Well I'm actually up in the air on this one. I think doing drugs is your own business. I don't think taxpayers should have to help with your addiction. And my Father was on meth when he tried to kill my family and me. Now, I can't really say it was the drug, but I'm sure it didn't help. I've seen drugs rip apart families. Then again, more logically I suppose he payed for it by sitting his butt in jail. So I'm not sure where I stand on this. I lean more to freedom to do whatever I suppose, but being forced to take responsibility for your own actions. I mean I DO think the war on drugs is failing. And causing cartels to have a thriving business, just like prohibition did with the mob.
Either way that is starting to get slightly off topic. Forgive me, I just woke up and haven't had coffee yet....

 

[Tgace]

Capture, charge, prosecute and jail.

Jail?

What state do you live in? Users never go to jail here...diversion programs, drug court, probation. Jail?

Hardly ever.

 

[ballen0351]

We pay for it anyway. It's not a choice. We just pay more because we treat the addiction AND we pay for the entire criminal side, too. Capture, charge, prosecute and jail. In addition to treating the medical conditi we pay for their food, clothing and shelter for as long as they are in the court system.

I thought we were talking in a hypothetical world where if it doesn't effect others it should be legal. You said make it all legal and pay for a single payer system. I was saying once I have to pay for your decisions it now effects me. If we truly want a society where anything goes al long as it doesnt bothes or effect others then make it all legal and offer zero public funded treatment let people OD and die in the streets

 

[ballen0351]

Jail?

What state do you live in? Users never go to jail here...diversion programs, drug court, probation. Jail?

Hardly ever.

Next will come the "I heard of first time marijuana users getting years in jail on a first arrest". Nobody can ever produce the case numbers or names to verify but anytime legal pot argument comes up that gets thrown out there.

 

[arnisador]

You know drugs are bad and can be addictive so that's on you not my problem

I know people can be allergic to peanuts. If I choose to try them and have a severe allergic reaction requiring medical intervention, is that on me too?

 

[ballen0351]

I know people can be allergic to peanuts. If I choose to try them and have a severe allergic reaction requiring medical intervention, is that on me too?

Drugs and peanuts are a little different. But OK we will give you one free round in rehab see how well that works for you. I know ZERO people that have gone to rehab and stayed clean the first try. I know they are probably out there but its not the type of clients I deal with generally.