Old Chinese Wrestling Strategy

[Kung Fu Wang]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

 

[grumpywolfman]

Hello Kung Fu Wang,

I don't have much experience in grappling, but at 0:14 in the clip, it looks to me like the aggressor could be vulnerable for either a kick to the groin, a sending foot sweep, or an inside major reap.

 

[Steve]

Isn't that a judo hip toss/o goshi?

The gentleman does a fine job, particularly considering his age.


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[grumpywolfman]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

I'll probably be lucky if I can pick up the TV remote if I make to 80. I'm sorry for being so technical - I wasn't thinking. I didn't intend any disrespect.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but at 0:14 in the clip, it looks to me like the aggressor could be vulnerable for either a kick to the groin, a sending foot sweep, or an inside major reap.

You are talking about when his left foot landed infront of his opponnet's right foot. At that moment, his left arm "under hook" had off balanced his opponent already (made his opponent's body to bend to his left). He could just move his left foot from behind his opponent's right foot directly to pass his opponent's left foot right after his right foot advancing if he was still young.

 

[grumpywolfman]

You are talking about when his left foot landed infront of his opponnet's right foot. At that moment, his left arm "under hook" had off balanced his opponent already (made his opponent's body to bend to his left). He could just move his left foot from behind his opponent's right foot directly to pass his opponent's left foot right after his right foot advancing if he was still young.

I'm sorry, I wasn't even thinking about his age when I ran the clip. His technique was so good that I was just trying to find a counter for it.

 

[arnisador]

Neat!

 

[Cyriacus]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

Ill run down the list:

1; Ill cover this in 5.
2; If youre close enough to get underhooks thats not really a problem, unless you stand still like an idiot.
3; Thats focusing way too much on where their foot goes, and not on what they are actually doing.
4; Ill cover this in 5.
5; Charging at someone and underhooking them does actually work pretty well if it starts from just within or just outside hands distance. Unfortunately, youre a bit limited in what you can actually do after that. With that being said, in offense, if the other person isnt moving towards you, it makes colliding with someone and wrestling them down fairly easy. Why? Unbalancing.

Im not criticizing the strategy, but alot of it is either redundant (I dont need to learn that i can use my leading leg to jam my opponents leading leg - Getting in and getting an underhook does that for you regardless of whether or not youre aware of it. Its a sidenote, not a lesson), or common sense. Im sure you dont need to be a chinese wrestler to figure out that barreling into someone and wrapping your arms around them works in offense (assuming youre not picky about whether or not it actually gets under their arms reliably, though it wouldnt make a difference).

But like i said before, im not criticizing the strategy, im praising it for being something really mundane and functional. The only thing id change is the takedown, but thats preference.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I hope I can do that when I’m 80, but since I already saw a guy in his 80s doing Changquan in Beijing better than I could do in my 20s I do no have high hopes for that.

A side note, #3 is used in Xingyiquan and many do not even realize it is there.

 

[Steve]

What makes this technique Chinese wrestling? I mean, beyond the obvious, that it's being done by a Chinese person.

Also, regarding strategy, is there any actual strategy involved in the demonstration of a single technique? What I mean is, the strategy of executing this technique would be in the set up. The strategy is in putting yourself and your opponent into a position where the technique can be executed successfully.

Maybe this is just me misunderstanding what the first poster means by "strategy." So, to try and be clear, the following video is demonstration of the same technique:

But for a video on strategy, check this one out:

 

[Xue Sheng]

What makes this technique Chinese wrestling? I mean, beyond the obvious, that it's being done by a Chinese person.

Also, regarding strategy, is there any actual strategy involved in the demonstration of a single technique? What I mean is, the strategy of executing this technique would be in the set up. The strategy is in putting yourself and your opponent into a position where the technique can be executed successfully.

Maybe this is just me misunderstanding what the first poster means by "strategy." So, to try and be clear, the following video is demonstration of the same technique:

because I say it is

And I said, 'Gentleman....and I use that word loosely....
I will testify for you
I'm a gun for hire, I'm a saint, I'm a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
Just a data to be manipulated
I can get any result you like
What's it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution
No remorse, no retribution
Just people selling T-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
And winning, winning, winning'"

its not often I get a chance to use a sectio from the Garden of Allah as an answer and have it even remotely apply...and it is remote here....but I'm OK with that
Thanks

 

[Steve]

Funny. But, I'm still kind of curious as to what exactly Chinese wrestling is, how it's represented in the video above, and how we can draw any conclusions regarding strategy from the clip posted in the OP.

I guess I may never know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What makes this technique Chinese wrestling? I mean, beyond the obvious, that it's being done by a Chinese person.

I don't understand your question. The old man was a Chinese wrestling champion in his weight class in China. He had trained Chinese wrestling all his life. He knew nothing about Judo and western wrestling. If I don't call him Chinese wrestler, I don't know what else to call him.

Here are some information about Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao).

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/history.html

To me, strategy is how to enter and how to finish.

 

[Steve]

I don't understand your question. The old man was a Chinese wrestling champion in his weight class in China. He had trained Chinese wrestling all his life. He knew nothing about Judo and western wrestling. If I don't call him Chinese wrestler, I don't know what else to call him.

Here are some information about Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao).

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/history.html

To me, strategy is how to enter and how to finish.

Thanks. I'm actually familiar with what Chinese wrestling is, although i will freely admit that I'm not an authority. What I'm asking is, what specifically makes this different from the technique video I posted? The subject of the thread includes Chinese wrestling strategy. I'm wondering what about the technique distinguishes it as Chinese wrestling. Because to me, it looks like a good example of a judo hip toss, from the entry through the execution to the finish.

And I don't know what your background is. So if you don't have the expertise n Chinese wrestling to answer the question, I understand.

Regarding strategy, I appreciate the clarification. I think of strategy as being more about how one would make the technique work against an actual opponent.

Did you happen to watch the videos I posted? If not, it might help you understand my questions.





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[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is my website with my personal information:

http://www.johnswang.com/

I have watched both clips that you have presented. IMO, the

- entering strategy is "how to create a chance so you can obtain the body controls that you will need for your throw".
- finish strategy is "how to execute your final throw so your opponent won't be able to get away."

As far as I know, the finish strategy may be similiar between Chinese wrestling and Judo. The entering strategy may be different. Since I don't know Judo, I can't say what a Judoka may do. I can only say what a Chinese wrestler may do.

Here is another Chinese wrestling strategy.

 

[Steve]

Here is my website with my personal information:

http://www.johnswang.com/

I have watched both clips that you have presented. IMO, the

- entering strategy is "how to create a chance so you can obtain the body controls that you will need for your throw".
- finish strategy is "how to execute your final throw so your opponent won't be able to get away."

Thanks. That helps me understand a little better, I think. Regarding the videos I posted, do you see any differences in application between the video you posted above and the ones I posted later? That's really what I'm trying to figure out. I'm somewhat familiar with the concepts involved in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is a close cousin to Judo. I am very interested in all kinds of grappling and would like to understand the nuances of your post that distinguish it from the Judo technique I posted. Do you see any?

As far as I know, the finish strategy may be similiar between Chinese wrestling and Judo. The entering strategy may be different. Since I don't know Judo, I can't say what a Judoka may do. I can only say what a Chinese wrestler may do.

Here is another Chinese wrestling strategy.

These last couple of videos seem more in line with the chinese wrestling videos I've seen in the past. Interesting stuff. It seems, in general, more circular than the grappling styles I'm familiar with.

I