OK I'm officially confused

[Xue Sheng]

Guys don’t get me wrong because I like Dr Yang but what the heck is going on here. Look at what Dr Yang is doing and compare it to the Chen family Versions of Paochui

Yang Jwingming Pao Chui

Chen Taijiquan - Laojia Er Lu (Pao Chui) – Chen Zhenglei

Chen Xiaowang Xinja Erlu - Chen Xiaowang,

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Well to be fair he has been doing it only for 2 years.


Yang Jwing Ming's stances look wider to me that may be because he does Yang form. The weight looks more 70/30 or 80/20

Were the weight by Chen Zhenlei looks more 60/40.

Yang Jwing Ming's arm movement looks wider as well.

Not as compact as Chen style.

I think it is good for someone practicing for 2 years and making a transition from Yang to Chen.

 

[Ninebird8]

I have trained my Yang style under his senior Jeff Bolt and taken many seminars with him. He has admitted that he has only done Chen for 2 years, and frankly, it does have stances that are too wide. But the overall fa jing is there, and of course the focus and transition. Personally, for only two years it does not look bad, but of course his Yang and white crane does show through. At age 61, he moves very well, and as I found when I went to each of my three masters over the last 32 years, eventually what you learn blends together and is hard to separate, though I do keep my southern separate from my Northern, but my tai chi has pervaded all of my kung fu.

I am not excusing him, or defending him, only saying I admire at his age he is still learning something new, says he is, and puts himself out there for it. My tai chi, compared to my kung fu, is nowhere close still, but then I have found tai chi to be at times very frustrating yet always rewarding!!

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm the GREENEST here so my opinion doesn't matter anywhere near as much but, I've seen at least part of this performed by Guang Yi Ren and this didn't look like that.

Better than I could (especially since I'm not doing Chen style) though.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Did he learn Chen form from Shou Yu Liang? I think Shou Yu liang teaches it. I do not know who taught Shou Yu Liang Chen style.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I hear you guys talking about the differences of chen style stances. Well let me asked you. Which do you think is better? Chen or Yang stances?

Also what are the advantages and disadvantages of both stances?

 

[Ninebird8]

Yoshi, your first question is a red herring to me, in that Yang, like the other 3 styles Wu, Wu Hao, and Sun, all emanated from Chen so of course comparing stance work to me is a little problematic. I will say, in my opinion, just from observation, that Chen seems more dynamic and the transitional stancework is different from Yang. One of the questions that I have about Chen v. other tai chi deriviatives, is the expression of fa jing seems much more readily apparent than the others in expression during the forms? Xue, and others, do you find this true as well? Yang's fa jing comes through to me at least more subtly and as explosive, but less apparent in observation. As an example of another difference, my Ying Jow sifu, Leung Shum, is also a Wu style tai chi master, and Grandmaster Kwong Ming Lee (Johnny, who is also a master of mizhong and ba gua) is one as well. With one from Hong Kong, and the other from Shanghai, their Wu stances are a little different....to wit, Sigung Lee's Wu leans a little more forward in a couple of instances than Sigung Shum's. But the essentials are the same. Similarly, I have seen many variations of the same Chen forms performed by different masters. AS far as who Dr. Yang learned from, I would not be surprised if Shouyu Liang taught him, as he holds him in great esteem, and both my tai chi/white crane sifu Jeff Bolt and Dr. Yang speak very highly of Master Shouyu and his daughter Helen.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I agree with the fajing you just have to look at silk reeling.

I don't think one is better than the other.

Personally I would really like to learn Wu or Sun with martial application.

I read Helen's story in Kungfu Tai chi(what ever they call it nowadays) magazine I have her Water boxing DVD she is truly amazing.

I have Shou Yu Liang Fast wrestling book it is excellent.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent discussion very very interesting!

I agree with the fajing you just have to look at silk reeling.

I don't think one is better than the other.

Personally I would really like to learn Wu or Sun with martial application.

I read Helen's story in Kungfu Tai chi(what ever they call it nowadays) magazine I have her Water boxing DVD she is truly amazing.

I have Shou Yu Liang Fast wrestling book it is excellent.

 

[Ninebird8]

I just finished learning that water boxing set, as one of my classmated has gone up to Vancouver to learn from him and his daughter the last few years this 253 movement set, and it is quite intricate, difficult, and an endless supply of fighting techniques and fa jing expressions. If you want to learn true fa jing explosion from the waist, learn li he bua fa!! My opinion! A great accent to the Yang tai chi!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just finished learning that water boxing set, as one of my classmated has gone up to Vancouver to learn from him and his daughter the last few years this 253 movement set, and it is quite intricate, difficult, and an endless supply of fighting techniques and fa jing expressions. If you want to learn true fa jing explosion from the waist, learn li he bua fa!! My opinion! A great accent to the Yang tai chi!

I looked for Liuhebafa for a while but gave up since the only teacher I found near me was...well....fake.

But I envy your training.

But I will add there is a lot of fajing in Yang style and after doing push hands with my sifu for a few years I have the bruise to prove it


By the way there is a Liuhebafa person that posts on MT from time to time by the name of Oxy

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats up with all the water down Tai Chi?

Why are people mixing it up...


Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?

I looked for Liuhebafa for a while but gave up since the only teacher I found near me was...well....fake.

But I envy your training.

But I will add there is a lot of fajing in Yang style and after doing push hands with my sifu for a few years I have the bruise to prove it


By the way there is a Liuhebafa person that posts on MT from time to time by the name of Oxy

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?

Ya look at Sun Tai chi.

 

[Ninebird8]

Xue, I agree that Yang has very good fa jing, I just find it much more subtle than Chen after years with Jeff and Dr. Yang. The expression from Yang seems much more from the feet to the waist to the shoulder expressed through the hands in an explosive but subtle way. In fact, might be another good thread topic, to discuss the different ways fa jing and silk reeling, along with rooting/sinking, are expressed out in the five major tai chi styles and ba gua/hsing i.

Liang Shouyu is extraordinary, and Dr. Yang and Jeff look up to him immensely, quite honestly. I will tell you his li he bua fa is very difficult and though I have "learned" the moves I give myself 3-5 years to totally understand what I just learned, LOL!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, I agree that Yang has very good fa jing, I just find it much more subtle than Chen after years with Jeff and Dr. Yang. The expression from Yang seems much more from the feet to the waist to the shoulder expressed through the hands in an explosive but subtle way. In fact, might be another good thread topic, to discuss the different ways fa jing and silk reeling, along with rooting/sinking, are expressed out in the five major tai chi styles and ba gua/hsing i.

Liang Shouyu is extraordinary, and Dr. Yang and Jeff look up to him immensely, quite honestly. I will tell you his li he bua fa is very difficult and though I have "learned" the moves I give myself 3-5 years to totally understand what I just learned, LOL!!

Agreed Yang is much more subtle than Chen. Could be why I have always liked Chen better, I have never been accused of being subtle

The only person my Taiji sifu has ever saw doing the Beijing 24 form that he said had a good understanding of taiji was Liang Shouyu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whats up with all the water down Tai Chi?

Why are people mixing it up...


Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?

Well as JadecloudAlchemist already said Sun Style Taijiquan

Sun Lutang was a Xingyiquan, Baguazhang master before learning Hao style taijiquan (or at least I think it was Hao style). He then combined Xingyiquan/Bagauzhang/Taijiquan and got Sun Style Taijiquan.

As for watered down and why. It is much easier to train just for form and not do the MA. First people can claim mastery much quicker and second it does not hurt as much.

Very few people (myself included when I was younger) want to take the time necessary to actually understand Taijiquan as a Martial Art. We all want to become dangerous quickly.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Xue Zheng said:

As for watered down and why. It is much easier to train just for form and not do the MA. First people can claim mastery much quicker and second it does not hurt as much.

Please explain why it doesn't hurt as much?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Zheng said:

Please explain why it doesn't hurt as much?

They don't do applications and applications hurt and most do not even do the correct form. Do Yang style higher and slow it will not hurt as much the next day. Don't do push hands or any apps in push hands because that too can hurt or be uncomfortable and Qinna is RIGHT out.

Look at videos on YouTube of Yang Jun or Yang Zhenduo and compare them to videos of Tung Hu Ling and Tung Ying Chieh you will see the difference in height. I wold also recommend looking at videos of Fu Zhongwen but many of those are when he was rather old. There may be videos of his son out there that you can look at that will also show you differences in many things as compared to the Yang family today.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Guys don’t get me wrong because I like Dr Yang but what the heck is going on here. Look at what Dr Yang is doing and compare it to the Chen family Versions of Paochui

Yang Jwingming Pao Chui

Chen Taijiquan - Laojia Er Lu (Pao Chui) – Chen Zhenglei

Chen Xiaowang Xinja Erlu - Chen Xiaowang,

The problem with this comparison is that there's a much wider variety of Chen style than is indicated in this comparison. The bottom two teachers are famous but that hardly makes them the only experts on the subject, nor the standard by which all Chen stylists compare themselves.

Dr. Ynag's Chen style reminds me on the Chen styles I've seen in my time here in Taiwan. The styles here have a much stronger xiaojia -- small circle -- flavor than the laojia practiced by Zhenglei and Xiaowang.

So I would cut Dr. Yang some slack here.

He learned his Chen from Liang Shou-you and that's the person Yang's form should be compared to. But I don't think I've seen a clip of Liang's Chen.

 

[DavidCC]

I belevie Yi Li Quan combines Xing Yi, Baghua and Tai Chi. Pete Starr is an MT member but hasbeen pretty infrequent altely. (user pstarr i believe). I have met him on a few occasions and trained with some of his students and they are for real.