Ogoshi vs. Koshi Garuma

[JR 137]

Thanks - that fits with how I'd do the two variations. I often wonder how much of my grappling is still influenced by my relatively brief time in Judo. I thought in the past it wasn't much, but the more I look into Judo, the more I see things that explain the difference between some of my NGA and the NGA of others I trained with.

Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?

If I had the money to sign up for some classes, I’d be thinking hard about that.

 

[JP3]

Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?

Spare time... spare change... who has any of either?

 

[PiedmontChun]

A true O Goshi was always hard for me as it contorted my spine a bit to get that reach around grip on the opponent's back while simultaneously squaring up my hips against their lower body. Outside of a Judo school, it probably seems like splitting hairs since they look so similar, but Uki Goshi (floating half hip throw) has a different entry that makes it a little more doable for me. When sparring BJJ with taller lanky people, I fight for an under hook and sometimes get an Uki Goshi type hip throw easily. Like other people have already commented, with an opponent shorter than you - the higher neck grip for Koshi Guruma is more accessible and therefore logical.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

with an opponent shorter than you - the higher neck grip for Koshi Guruma is more accessible and therefore logical.

If you are 6 ft and your opponent is 4 ft, it makes no sense to throw him over your hip (vertical up). Any side way throw (horizontal around your body) will be better.

If you are 4 ft and your opponent is 6 ft, it will be difficult for you to reach to his neck.

 

[PiedmontChun]

If you are 6 ft and your opponent is 4 ft, it makes no sense to throw him over your hip (vertical up). Any side way throw (horizontal around your body) will be better.

If you are 4 ft and your opponent is 6 ft, it will be difficult for you to reach to his neck.

Well... yeah. I was envisioning someone a few inches taller vs someone a few inches shorter.

If I was 6 ft and they were 4 ft, I'd probably Uchi Mata (or I'd probably get kicked out of the kid's grappling class for throwing 4 ft tall grapplers around). If I was 4 ft and they were 6 ft, I'd probably avoid gi grips altogether and single leg them. But these are strange hypotheticals.

 

[JR 137]

If he’s 4ft tall...

You don't need karate. You can just wring his neck.

 

[lklawson]

I was looking at a list of Kodokan Judo throws, remembering those I'd learned and relating others to what I know from elsewhere in my training. But I can't spot the difference between two of them in the excellent, but simplified animations. Ogoshi is a basic hip throw - what's different about Koshi Garuma?

The 67 Kodokan Judo Throws – Nagewaza – Judo Info

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The 67 Kodokan Judo Throws – Nagewaza – Judo Info

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That is precisely the list I was looking at when I posted that originally, Kirk. I don't recall the video links being there at the time, but my memory for details like that sucks, so...

Looking at the videos, I had to go back and look at Tony's description of the difference, because my mind sees them as the same throw (in NGA, they'd be different applications of the same throw) - I notice the hip action, pull, etc, but not the precise arm position difference when I view them quickly.

 

[Aegis]

Just spotted this while perusing the forum, and I have to disagree.

This won't be absolutely authoritative by any means, as my interpretation of these throws comes from my style of jujutsu as well as my research into translations and interpretations of the original Kodokan techniques. Importantly, this comes flavoured with the view from my style that a throw is ultimately defined by the effect that it has on uke far more than on specific positioning of tori.

As a result of this, I think the comments about hand positions are misleading. Someone shorter than their opponent can do koshi-guruma or o-goshi with arms around the waist, someone taller can do both throws with arms around the neck or down the back.

Where a difference for tori really comes in is the foot positioning and the degree of hip insertion. Koshi guruma is, for me, the deepest turn and therefore the deepest hip insertion of all of the hip throws, with my foot position getting close to perpendicular with uke's, and uke almost folds directly over my hips when I do this as a result. This very deep turn has an impact on the balance take at the start, which needs a degree of sideways movement that I don't normally expect to need for o-goshi.

Going back to o-goshi, the difference starts at the balance take - less (no) sideways, more forwards. The entry then leads to an almost parallel stance to uke's, with hips extended enough to block uke's natural step. Rather than simply rolling over tori's hips, uke should feel like they are travelling a path from tori's extended hip upwards to tori's rear shoulder, then over into a throw.

Once you start identifying differences between these throws you can then start picking up on other similarities. For example, there are definite overlaps between o-guruma and koshi-guruma that do not exist when considering o-goshi instead, and understanding these commonalities more is really helping me deepen my understanding of the core principles of the throws that make up my art.

 

[drop bear]

With Ogoshi, you wrap your arm around the opponent's waist. With Koshi Guruma, you wrap their head/neck.

That's mostly it, although there are some minor differences which result from the different grips. With Koshi Guruma you can compromise the opponent's structure more due to the head control and you can insert and turn your own hips further without the grip getting in your way.

Generally Koshi Guruma is easier when you are taller than your opponent and Ogoshi is easier when you are shorter.

We mostly do koshi Guruma but it is probably positional. Fighting from when they have an underhooks or something.

I am not sure.

Anyway Dan Kelly does it.

 

[frank raud]

This won't be absolutely authoritative by any means, as my interpretation of these throws comes from my style of jujutsu as well as my research into translations and interpretations of the original Kodokan techniques.

Where a difference for tori really comes in is the foot positioning and the degree of hip insertion.

Interesting. In the style of jiu jitsu I studied, based on Kawaishi jiu jitsu and Kodokan judo, the hip position was the same for o-goshi, seoi-nage, makki komi and kube nage(neck throw, slightly different from Koshi Guruma). The difference is the position of the hands and arms ( o-goshi, one hand on back, usually to control hips, other hand at elbow of uke, seoi-nage, one hand under the arm, one hand over arm at elbow, makki komi, one hand grasping arm from above, other hand in same position as other throws, and for kube nage, one arm wrapped around neck and lifting, other hand in same position as other throws. When I switched to Kodokan judo, my senseis never corrected any of that. They were totally disapproving of how I would do breakfalls, but no issues with my throwing techniques.