Okay, that explains why I didn't see a difference - my primary classification wouldn't separate those (one would be an application of the other). Thanks, Tony!
Is your primary classification based on hip position? With you in front of the uke, one hand on sleeve, one on back is ogoshi (or variants like obi goshi), one hand on sleeve, one around neck is Koshi Garuma, one hand on sleeve, one under same arm is seoi nage, one hand on sleeve, one hand over is makikomi. There are other throws that can be done from same hip position (morote seoi nage, yama arashi). Lots of variation from one position.
You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.
I think it would be easy to apply a hip throw from that position.You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.
It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.
The hip throw require a "lift' motion. The head lock is a "sideway" motion (not even a downward motion). It makes no sense that you try to lift your opponent with your hip, at the same time that you press his head sideway with your head lock.
If you do head lock correctly, your opponent's spine will be bent side way. This side way bending spine won't work will with hip throw. If you don't bend your opponent's spine side way, your head lock won't be effective.
The horizontal circular head lock motion won't work will with the vertical up and down hip throw motion.
In the following clip, since A's head lock is a vertical up and down motion, B's free left hand can push A's head lock right arm forward and let B's head to slide off A's head lock. But if A's head lock is a horizontal side way motion, it will be much harder for B to escape out of A's head lock.
Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.
But hip throw is over the back throw (vertical) and not around the body throw. When your opponent's spine is bending side way, his balance is weak side way and not weak forward.
NGA uses much broader classification. For instance, we have one formal sweeping technique (Leg Sweep, basically osoto gari). We teach all the others as variations on that theme, sometimes combined with other throws. So, in our minds, about 5 different Judo sweeping techniques are clearly just Leg Sweep. Some are from the front, but they're still Leg Sweep.
Hip throw doesn't have to be a lifting (vertical) throw. The one that is taught late in the NGA curriculum uses a horizontal circle to power the throw. It's a bad example (not a terribly practical throw, because it lacks a strong connection, IMO), but it shows how far from vertical a hip throw can get. I can easily do a hip throw over a range of angles, as long as I can get the hip inside and a bit low. I think where the difficulty comes from is when you're trying to get a tight headlock. The headlock isn't the point, though, the throw is, so you only need enough of a headlock to connect the throw properly.You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.
It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.
The hip throw require a "lift' motion. The head lock is a "sideway" motion (not even a downward motion). It makes no sense that you try to lift your opponent with your hip, at the same time that you press his head sideway with your head lock.
If you do head lock correctly, your opponent's spine will be bent side way. This side way bending spine won't work will with hip throw. If you don't bend your opponent's spine side way, your head lock won't be effective.
The horizontal circular head lock motion won't work will with the vertical up and down hip throw motion.
In the following clip, since A's head lock is a vertical up and down motion, B's free left hand can push A's head lock right arm forward and let B's head to slide off A's head lock. But if A's head lock is a horizontal side way motion, it will be much harder for B to escape out of A's head lock.
Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.
A half-step underneath with the leg, and there's enough hip connection to send them over the hip. The direction of the throw won't be vertical - probably closer to 45 degrees.
Two things. It is quite proper in the JUDO forum to use judo terminology. If Gerry knew the difference between them, he wouldn't have made the thread.
If you place your rear hand on the back of opponent's head, you don't have any control of his hips, making it easy for him to shift his hips and counter. It may work differently in Chinese wrestling, but this is the judo forum.
Thank you for informing us of the ONE true way to do a headlock. But Koshi Garuma is not a head lock. It is a neck throw.
Jinx!
Judo terminology will usually tell you a lot about how a throw is done and where the emphasis should be. Koshi (hip) garuma (wheel). Hiza (knee) garuma (wheel). The emphasis in Koshi Garuma is wheeling the uke over your hip, not your back. In Hiza garuma, the fulcrum point is the knee.
In my opinion, it is the same thing.
Thanks - that fits with how I'd do the two variations. I often wonder how much of my grappling is still influenced by my relatively brief time in Judo. I thought in the past it wasn't much, but the more I look into Judo, the more I see things that explain the difference between some of my NGA and the NGA of others I trained with.
