Novelty of BJJ Techniques?

[arnisador]

To what extent are the actual techniques of BJJ new, as opposed to the way in which they are applied or the overall philosophy/strategy? How many of the BJJ techniques are judo/wrestling ground techniques or only slightly modified ground judo/wrestling techniques, for example?

 

[Kyle]

BJJ came from Judo, so the techniques are similar. The devil is in the details, the transitions, and the guard work. BJJ takedowns, to the extent they are emphasised, are from Judo and wrestling.

- Kyle

 

[darkdragoon]

Pretty much the same techniques, just different emphasis, especially on using them from each position. I've heard the BJJ leglocks are pretty similar to Sambo's.

The main change in a move I've found is that the BJJ side choke is often just used as a holddown in judo.

 

[darkdragoon]

Some more:

The armbar and triangle is often more like an armbar with neckscissor in regular ju-jutsu.

 

[Bri Thai]

Judo is a fine sport, and has great value as a fighting art. This value has been hampered though by the strict safety rules. They never leg tackle, and only lock on the elbow. This inability to attack and defend from so many other positions (i.e. neck cranks, heel holds, leg locks etc) has meant that it is nowhere as complete as BJJ.

I don't know much about the different kinds of Wrestling, but many have no submission aspect anyway.

BJJ has been developed with an absence of the negative effect of these rules. Also it has been free of the Japanese' habit of being unwilling to change, as they seem to respect what is old to the detriment of what is best.

I hope this doesn't offend any Judoka here. I let my kids do it but, in all honesty, if there was a good BJJ club near us they would do that instead.

 

[migo]

Olympic Judo allows Chokes and Arm Submissions. There is also Kosen Judo which is just as 'hardcore' as BJJ, with somewhat different technical emphasis.

 

[darkdragoon]

Originally posted by Bri Thai

I don't know much about the different kinds of Wrestling, but many have no submission aspect anyway.

Sambo is considered a style of wrestling. Catch and shootwrestling also have subs, but have a bad rep for their close association to pro wrestling.

 

[Bod]

I think that technique isn't the only issue. Training method, and I guess theory is slightly different.

Judo seems to follow a 'however you get there you get there' philosophy wheras BJJ does 'groundwork by numbers' and has a lot of emphasis on position.

I think groundwork probably lends itself to the BJJ method of training even if the techniques are much the same. I think standing work probably benifits from the Judo approach better.

 

[Gaston]

:rules:If I can get some tech. help I will add pictures of what I am talking about


I have just finished reading;idunno:picture of book) "My study of Judo" by G. Koizumi 7th dan at the time. The author was born on July 8, 1885, the book was copyrighted in 1960.
I came across some interesting facts. idunno:sample page of book listing Kansetsu waza/locking techniques for the entire body)

The principles described in this book can be found in most Judo, JJ or even BJJ syllabuses around the world, interesting.

Two moves in particular looks very similar, you be the judge. idunno:4 pictures of two very similar moves old and "new") The "newer" moves are out of BJJ Black Belt techniques copyright 2003 author Jean Jacques Machado. This book shows just how close Judo, JJ, & BJJ were all related at the start.

Gaston
ps pictures would help any advice out there??

 

[grappling_mandala]

I don't think there is a big different between the 'techniques' of BJJ and Judo, the main differences I think are training philosophy, positional dominance ground strategy of BJJ, and the freedom of no-gi AND gi in BJJ. I think judo is stronger in throws and ending up in a dominant position once the transition from clinch to ground is made. But everyone is different, learn as much as you can from everyone. See what makes it work.

Dave in Oregon

 

[auxprix]

The ground work is so similar that I can't distinguish between a Judo and BJJ ground tussle until a leglock is thrown on. It's been said many times before: the difference comes in the rules. BJJ rules are set up to favor groundwork and submissions, while Judo rules are set up to favor upright throws and minimal ground struggle. Training is the same. I can't speak for BJJ, but the two Judo dojos that I've practiced at were about 60%-40% in favor of upright work.

I have one question though. When I've watched BJJ matches, I've seen great opportunities for pins that were passed up. Are hold-downs allowed in tournement BJJ?

 

[auxprix]

Bri-Thai:

I just read your post, and wanted to respond. I don't think that you really understand the differences between the aims of BJJ and Judo.

They never leg tackle, and only lock on the elbow. This inability to attack and defend from so many other positions (i.e. neck cranks, heel holds, leg locks etc) has meant that it is nowhere as complete as BJJ.

We do have some leg takedowns, like the Kani Basami, but they are illegal for tournement play. I've read that the reason for this dates back to the tournements of a hundred years ago (estimate). Back then, rival dojos were using the Kani Basami to injure the knees of their competitors. That is why it became illegal.

You also claim that Judo is not as complete as BJJ. This statement is, at least in my opinion, very incorrect. It's true that we do not spend as much time working on ground fighting, but that is not the strategy. The predominant idea behind judo is the use of a controlled throw to end up in a dominant position over Uke. This position could easily end up in a pin, armbar, or choke. With this strategy, there isn't a whole lot of reason to spend alot of time on the ground. Therefor, we makeup for our (relatively) less effective ground technique with our very strong upright vocabulary.

BJJ is more about overpowering uke on the ground through superior technique. Neither strategy is better or worse, and both arts are developed with these ideas in hand.

To put it another way, you wouldn't lable Kung Fu (sorry, CMAers, I know it's terribly generalistic) more limited than TKD just because they don't deal with high kicks quite as much. It all comes down to the difference in strategy, and that is what makes the martial arts so wonderfully diverse.

Also it has been free of the Japanese' habit of being unwilling to change, as they seem to respect what is old to the detriment of what is best.

I don't understand why people think that we should change our strategy just because a different player came to town. Our strategy works for us, and we don't feel that we have to change it. Secondly, you talk about the "Japanese unwillingness to change." Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Japanese have always embraced change, and do it very well. For just one example of this, look at the Meiji resturation. Another one is the post war miracle. Now, there are some cultural aspects that do not change, but that's the same with all cultures around the world.

Lastly, you said that if there was a BJJ studio nearby, your children would go there. I mean no disrespect to you, and I may just be misreading your post, but maybe you should let your children decide what martial arts they should and should not partake in.

 

[tmanifold]

I don't know where you guys did judo but I attacked the legs all the time. Granted I come from a wrestling background so it is natural to me but I wasn't the only one In fact, I did it so much they used to call me Tony "the Pick" because I did so many ankle picks.

The difference is that a wrestling double leg doesn't work as well against a judoka due to the way they stand and their knowledge of sacrifice throws. The judo and BJJ way of doing a double is to come up close, drop down and reap the legs rather than get low, drive into the hips and lift.


Tony

 

[auxprix]

Well, if that's what is meant by leg takedowns...Yes. I Do alot of those as well. When I hear "leg takedowns" I think "kani Basami" or leg scissor. So, yeah, Tmanifold is right. There are many leg takedowns (we call them "arm Reaps") in Judo. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[gusano]

.I hope this doesn't offend any Judoka here. I let my kids do it but, in all honesty, if there was a good BJJ club near us they would do that instead.

I would recommend they primarily train BJJ but would definatley continue their training in Judo and even wrestling to compliment their jiu-jitsu.

 

[Gaston]

I recieved some help with the pictures mentioned above. Come see just how close some techniques are regardless of the names given to them or style you first see them in. Slight differences could be attributed to individual application, or how the technique first worked for that sensei.

Differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?

:yinyang:
Gaston

 

[Gaston]

The ground work is so similar that I can't distinguish between a Judo and BJJ ground tussle until a leglock is thrown on. It's been said many times before: the difference comes in the rules. BJJ rules are set up to favor groundwork and submissions, while Judo rules are set up to favor upright throws and minimal ground struggle. Training is the same. I can't speak for BJJ, but the two Judo dojos that I've practiced at were about 60%-40% in favor of upright work.

Very good point, it is the individual "sports" competition rules that determine what direction various martial arts focus their efforts. That does not mean the original art did/does not teach other techniques. It just means that you won't be seeing them in any tournaments. For example when Karate recently started allowing some throws "in tournament", about 1/2 their class showed up at our Dojo for tips.
Gaston

I have one question though. When I've watched BJJ matches, I've seen great opportunities for pins that were passed up. Are hold-downs allowed in tournement BJJ?

Again good question.

 

[grappling_mandala]

I have one question though. When I've watched BJJ matches, I've seen great opportunities for pins that were passed up. Are hold-downs allowed in tournement BJJ?

I think I see a subtle difference between BJJ/Modern Sub Grappling and JUDO mat work.

BJJ tends to be more Transition and Submission focused.

Judo seems more Hold-down and Submission focused.

Judo's mat work has a predisposition towards the HOLD-DOWN as a starting point. This is because of a predisposition to end up on the mat in a clearly dominant position from a well executed throw. This is of coarse the "ideal".

BJJ maintains TRANSITION as a starting point. From Machado's and Gracies to Sakuraba in Japan, to Submission Grappling Leagues thru out the land (start national anthem here) the things you see over and over is the ability to maintain good posture and POSITIONAL DOMINANCE thru transitions. That set positions are simply bookmarks in a continum of possibilities.

This subtle difference is amplified by the clearly defined rules of Judo tournaments, and the wider range of competitions available for BJJ and Submission Grappling, with a range of rules highlighting different aspects of grappling itself.

Styles develope of coarse, and rules around tournaments, no leg locks this way, no neck cranks, etc.

Personally I think BJ is magical. The magic of BJJ or modern submission grappling (aka NAGA etc) is the chance to live in an environment that developes the ability to work inside of NEUTRAL SPACE. Rickson talks about this. Every high level grappler I've ever had the honor of rolling with talks about not over commiting, not over extending, not locking out your knees or elbows, using all four tools, using your whole body, combining directions inside a sphere, 45 and 90 degree angles, redirection, "Flow with the go" etc etc.... technical details laced with movement philosophy, but really just a reflection of the details discussed on the mat in an alternative language.

Dave in Oregon

 

[DeLamar.J]

BJJ came from Judo, so the techniques are similar. The devil is in the details, the transitions, and the guard work. BJJ takedowns, to the extent they are emphasised, are from Judo and wrestling.

- Kyle

I have a buddy who was a good wrestler in school and if he takes someone down it would appear that he was a BJJ fighter, but he never had a day of training in that art, just hard core high school wrestling.