North Korea, What to do?

[oftheherd1]

...

First, nothing is ever good about war. Sometimes you have to choose the greater of two evils in order accomplish a mission. In this case it would have been to bomb NK, using an a-bomb. After pushing back the NK past the 38th, he knew that he could drive them further to the Manchurian border. It is here that he advocated the use of an atomic bomb to wipe out that area which would have halted further intervention of China as well as dealt a strong if not final blow to the NK army. While the devastation would be great, it most likely would have stopped this war, kept Korea united and, in the long run we would have seen a third world country become a more powerful nation sooner that they had. Not to mention that the images that people are seeing of NK would not exist.

I believe Truman was very correct to use the A-bomb against Japan. I believe he was also very correct not to use it against NK or China. I think there are many arguable reasons no country has used the A-bomb since WWII. But I believe one of them is that the USA and Russia have not used them. Sort of putting the gennie back in the bottle and not letting him out again. No one in his right mind wishes for the day we have nuclear weapons used again in a war. I think if we had done that, A-bombing our way across China, the Russians would have reacted, probably with the use of nuclear weapons as well.

If Truman was wavering, and I doubt that he was, he could not releive McArthur and then advocate use of the A-bomb in a little 'police action.' And he had no choice but to releive McArthur. I don't know what possessed McArthur to be so insubordinate but there was no choice but to relieve him. And what a waste! He was both a great strategist and tactician, and a hero to the American people. I guess he just let his ego get away from him.

 

[Instructor]

We did more damage with conventional incendiary bombs dropped from B-29's than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. The Japanese had already lost the war the emperor simply wouldn't admit it. The nuke was simply to really drive it home, 'you have lost'.

But I digress. What if we do simply ignore the problem, sit on our hands and say not my country, not my problem. What if in a 100 years it's still a mess like it is now. Was that still the right decision?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But I digress. What if we do simply ignore the problem, sit on our hands and say not my country, not my problem. What if in a 100 years it's still a mess like it is now. Was that still the right decision?

Yes.

We (the US specifically and the West in general) are not responsible for all the ills of the world. If we try to fix them, we're condemned. If we ignore them we're condemned.

All we can, and should, do is protect our own interests.

 

[Tez3]

It would be good if we could sort out everything so we all lived in peace and harmony sharing the worlds resources, it may happen one day outside a Star Trek episode. I think the best we can do for the moment is try to keep dialogue open with countries like Korea so that we can keep any threat they are to us as small as possible. We should be ready to offer humanitarian aid if and when it's needed, I think this for two reasons, the first is that we should always be as good to people as we can, we should help our fellow man, the second reason is far more selfish, that if we help people when they need it we place an obligation on them that hopefully when we need help they will be there! Whatever, though what is true is that goes around comes around. Better to treat countries as potential friends than potential enemies though it doesn't mean you take your guard down.
We should keep trying to talk to Korea, however pointless it seems, better to talk even in useless talks than have to fight. Korea isn't a socialist country, it never was, it's a dictatorship masquerading as a communist state. If it were communist or even socialist it would be very different, it may still have been belligerant but the country itself would have been different.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But I digress. What if we do simply ignore the problem, sit on our hands and say not my country, not my problem. What if in a 100 years it's still a mess like it is now. Was that still the right decision?

OK then...what do you suggest we do?

 

[Instructor]

I don't have any answers Xue Shen, only questions. Believe it or not I agree with Bill on principle but I also have a little nagging voice in my conscience saying if you don't tackle a problem it will never go away.

I suppose all I can do at this point is pray and hope.

 

[Tez3]

We can only 'do' something about Korea if it becomes a serious problem to our respective country's security. We can't take action because we don't like the country's leaders or politics, we may be appalled at what's going on but we can't and shouldn't do anything about it unless we have no choice because it threatens us. If the US intervenes because it doesn't like the politics or the leaders what's to stop it intervening in any country even in the UK? what if you decided that our NHS was bad for us or you didn't like the monarchy so you invaded us to change it all, how far do you go and where to you draw the line? You may think that's being a bit ridiculous but think about it, if you take military action to change a country's government where are you going to stop?

 

[Instructor]

It's a great point Tez. We have no business messing with other peoples governments. Frankly we still need to clean house in our own.

You all have been outstanding. Unlike some others I actually like it when people with strong minds and willing hearts show me where my ideas are fallacious. I would rather be wrong about something and learn than stoke my ego by being right. Well done.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I wouldn't even say this is socialist. It is more totalitarian mixed with dynastic leadership. If you look closely you would swear that they are reliving the ancient ways of the three kingdoms. They have a king who hands down the leadership to his son to be the next king. This has gone for 3 generations. They have a court full of ministry advisers and a kingdom of servants. All they are missing are the old fashion hanboks, some swords and a few horses.

Mr. Boik was talking about the DPRK's economic policy. You're takling about something else.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't have any answers Xue Shen, only questions. Believe it or not I agree with Bill on principle but I also have a little nagging voice in my conscience saying if you don't tackle a problem it will never go away.

I suppose all I can do at this point is pray and hope.

The thing is do the people of North Korea want to change or know they can?
The reason I say this was in the late 60s under Mao theChinese propaganda machine convinced the populace (at least in Beijing) that theUS was going to invade them (any day now) and many had no desire to leave because regardlessof how bad it was there, they were safe. The North Korean Propaganda machine isin full force in North Korea.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's to people's credit that they'd like something done about North Korea because on a human level it's hard to see people starve and not to be as free as we are. With all our various governments faults we are still far better off than many. I think if we keep up dialogue and be patient, we may see a change there, if we look at Myanmar (Burma as was) things are loosening up there and there's hope of democracy now. Perhaps then we can offer humanitarian aid and the like to help democracy grow.
Things in Egypt are in no way better than they were before the Arab Spring,if it was a revolution it was in name only, that's something to watch if anything in North Korea if there looks to be a revolution.

We do have to be careful, no country's people, progaganda machine or not likes to be told another country thinks they are wrong, calling on the North Koreans to rebel may have the opposite effect of helping support the dictatorship there. Their view may well be sure it's wrong but it's our wrong, they may not be grateful for intervention. To us that may be hard to understand but turn it the other way, with other countries demanding America changes it's system of government etc on the pain of invasion, you'd all be there standing beside Obama even those of you who hate him because while you may well hate him he's still yours, not someone imposed by another country, you want rid of him you vote not call for an invasion by China.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tez
I am not sure if that was directed at my post or the thread in general so....

For the record I am not suggesting invasion nor am I sayingthe People of Korea want us there all I am against any invasion and I tend to take the Chinese view which in this thread also appears to be Bill's. It is not our country and therefore not our business or responsibility. The conditions in North Korea are incredibly bad but it is still not, IMO, the responsibility o rbusiness of the USA to do anything about it.

My referring to the propaganda machine in China and US invasion the Chinese government convinced its people was coming was simply about this. The US had no intention or desire to invade China in the late 60s but the Chinese Government under Mao convinced its people we did and that is a great way to control its people and produce nationalism inits citizenry. Who knows what the North Korean Government has convinced its people about the rest of the world. And since they North Korean Government controls just about all communication they tell their people whatever they want them to believe

 

[Tez3]

Tez
I am not sure if that was directed at my post or the thread in general so....

For the record I am not suggesting invasion nor am I sayingthe People of Korea want us there all I am against any invasion and I tend to take the Chinese view which in this thread also appears to be Bill's. It is not our country and therefore not our business or responsibility. The conditions in North Korea are incredibly bad but it is still not, IMO, the responsibility o rbusiness of the USA to do anything about it.

My referring to the propaganda machine in China and US invasion the Chinese government convinced its people was coming was simply about this. The US had no intention or desire to invade China in the late 60s but the Chinese Government under Mao convinced its people we did and that is a great way to control its people and produce nationalism inits citizenry. Who knows what the North Korean Government has convinced its people about the rest of the world. And since they North Korean Government controls just about all communication they tell their people whatever they want them to believe

No it wasn't directed at your post.

Despite propaganda and lack of outside contact human nature is such that however bad things are in your country you don't want 'foreigners' interfering in your country's affairs. On the subject of the Chinese being convinced the US was going to invade I'm afraid they weren't the only country to think that, in the UK and a lot of non soviet Europe for a long time many people thought that the US would invade either the Soviet Union or China. There were even 'war game' exercise carried out at military colleges that worked on this premise. The world was fairly scared of the USA for a long time, the Bay of Pigs and other incidents sent shivers of fear throughout the world.

 

[tkd1964]

I wouldn't even say this is socialist. It is more totalitarian mixed with dynastic leadership. If you look closely you would swear that they are reliving the ancient ways of the three kingdoms. They have a king who hands down the leadership to his son to be the next king. This has gone for 3 generations. They have a court full of ministry advisers and a kingdom of servants. All they are missing are the old fashion hanboks, some swords and a few horses.

When I said Socialist, I was repeating what the Handler said. They are no different then the Europe of old except the people are restricted to a degree that noone should go through. The brainwashing has gone on for over 60 years convincing the people they can't do anything with out Great Leader, Dear Leader, etc. When my Brother was over there on a mission for finding MIA's , one of the people in his group made the mistake of throwing the newspaper in the garbage. Unfortunately it had a picture of the Dear Leader on it so when the person came to clean his room and saw the paper in the trash, she had a S**T FIT, went to the handlers, who went to my brother who had to cool everyone down. All because of a picture.

Taekwon!1

Mike

 

[Tez3]

When I said Socialist, I was repeating what the Handler said. They are no different then the Europe of old except the people are restricted to a degree that noone should go through. The brainwashing has gone on for over 60 years convincing the people they can't do anything with out Great Leader, Dear Leader, etc. When my Brother was over there on a mission for finding MIA's , one of the people in his group made the mistake of throwing the newspaper in the garbage. Unfortunately it had a picture of the Dear Leader on it so when the person came to clean his room and saw the paper in the trash, she had a S**T FIT, went to the handlers, who went to my brother who had to cool everyone down. All because of a picture.

Taekwon!1

Mike

Europe of old? What history books have you been reading?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For the North Korea lovers and sycophants who deny that North Korea is interested in nuclear technology for military purposes...

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Kim_Jong-Il_ordered_uranium_bombs_reports_999.html

Kim Jong-Il ordered uranium bombs: reports
by Staff Writers
Tokyo (AFP) July 2, 2012
The late North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il ordered his scientists to produce "a massive amount" of uranium bombs, according to internal regime documents, reports in Japan said Monday.

The instruction was revealed in papers believed to have been compiled in February this year for senior officials of the ruling Workers' Party, the Mainichi Shimbun and Tokyo Shimbun said.

Pyongyang has long maintained that it was enriching uranium solely for the purpose of power generation, despite widespread suspicion in the outside world.

But the document, detailing domestic and foreign policies, said Kim Jong-Il -- who died in December -- ordered the production of nuclear weapons using both uranium and plutonium.

Gee whiz. Another myth shattered. When will the morons who can't get enough of making excuses for North Korea wake up?

 

[miguksaram]

That is the problem of North Korea - its people and its government, and not ours.

Perhaps it is not your problem, but I see it differently since I have family in SK.

 

[miguksaram]

If Truman was wavering, and I doubt that he was, he could not releive McArthur and then advocate use of the A-bomb in a little 'police action.' And he had no choice but to releive McArthur. I don't know what possessed McArthur to be so insubordinate but there was no choice but to relieve him. And what a waste! He was both a great strategist and tactician, and a hero to the American people. I guess he just let his ego get away from him.

I believe it was his ego which inevitably did him in. He took the argument public, which eventually caused his demise. You will have to forgive me if I cringe at the use of the phrase "police action" when referring to the Korean War. This was one of the most significant wars that we fought, yet, many people do not really know about it. Most likely because of where it fell in history right between our greatest triumph and our worse defeat.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Perhaps it is not your problem, but I see it differently since I have family in SK.

If NK bordered the US, then it would be our problem, just as it is for your family.

However, and with the greatest sympathy, your family's problem does not make it our problem. If NK bordered the US, this would not be SK's problem, now, would it?

Every nation in the world is represented somewhere in the USA; we have citizens with family in every nation as far as I know. Does that make everything that happens everywhere our problem and something we should do something about?

As I said before, and history backs me up on this, if the USA gets involved, we are damned for doing so by the world. If we don't get involved, we are damned by the world for not doing so. However, not getting involved in things that do not directly concern us saves American lives, American taxpayer money, and leaves us to deal with our own issues. So I'll take the latter wherever practicable. I'm all for taking out NK's military threat to the region - that's our business. How they treat their own people? NOT our business.

 

[miguksaram]

Mr. Boik was talking about the DPRK's economic policy. You're takling about something else.

Pax,

Chris

Ok...swap out 'leadership' with 'economy' and it is pretty much the same. On paper they may claim to have a socialistic economy and practice but the 'wealth' is not being distributed evenly. The military and the government receive the vast amount of the money made where the citizens are left with crumbs to live off of. The upper caste live well, the lower...not so much.