North Korea, What to do?

[Instructor]

I recently watched Inside North Korea a Nat Geo documentary. Frankly it was heatbreaking and very disturbing. Am I alone in thinking something really needs to be done here? If so what?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I recently watched Inside North Korea a Nat Geo documentary. Frankly it was heatbreaking and very disturbing. Am I alone in thinking something really needs to be done here? If so what?

I've offered my suggestions in the past. I think what should have been done when their most recent crazy dictator died was to take advantage of that and absolutely eliminate their nuclear capability. Unfortunately, the world did not listen to my pleas.

From the point of view of the plight of the citizens of North Korea, I don't suggest anything. I care about how horribly they live; but I don't think it is the job, or the responsibility, of the rest of the world to fix. And try and remember, when the world wants the US to take action, we're bad because we don't. When we do, we're bad because we did. North Korea is not our problem (in the West) except as it represents a threat to us; not how they treat their own people.

So with regard to what needs to be done, I only think that their military abilities need to be blunted. We cannot allow them to continue to develop nuclear weapons or improve their delivery systems. We cannot allow them to market weapons and export terror to rogue nations that in turn represent a threat to the USA.

I am sad to see conditions inside North Korea. I do not think we can - or should - do anything directly about that.

 

[MA-Caver]

As I've said, a people oppressed will rise up against their oppressors when they get sick and tired of being sick and tired. It happened in Egypt, Libya and other places it will eventually happen in North Korea. Until then it's not our say to intervene. It's horrible, it's inhumane but at the risk of all out war, it's best to wait it out.
NK is a threat to us but IMO a "distant" threat, not directly. So far they haven't the reach to touch us. They may invade South Korea again (?) and we can say we are protecting "our interests" there by providing an assist. But it's North Korea's big brother that we need to be wary of, as they can do the same thing, providing their smaller ally with an assist.
It'd turn out to be like "A Private Little War"... though not precisely.

 

[miguksaram]

As I've said, a people oppressed will rise up against their oppressors when they get sick and tired of being sick and tired. It happened in Egypt, Libya and other places it will eventually happen in North Korea. Until then it's not our say to intervene. It's horrible, it's inhumane but at the risk of all out war, it's best to wait it out.

There is a difference between Egypt and NK which lies in the fact of what private citizens are allowed to have in terms of connections to the outside world. Technology and social media played a role in the what happened in the middle east in the recent uprisings. Plus Egyptian citizens have access and freedom to outside information. This is not something NK really has access to. If you ever watch a NK news cast you will see how distorted things really are. Example is the last missile launch that crashed and burned. According to the NK press they were told that it was a success. Secondly in NK you are obligated to serve the military for 10 years. The military, for the most part are well fed and armed, as opposed to the private citizen who is not. So an uprising from within would be nearly impossible, unless you could get the military on board...then it may become a "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" situation. Finally you have the people in power who are big fish in a little pond. They want to remain that way. If they were to allow their citizens to "be free", they would lose a lot of status and credibility not to mention wealth.

NK is a threat to us but IMO a "distant" threat, not directly. So far they haven't the reach to touch us. They may invade South Korea again (?) and we can say we are protecting "our interests" there by providing an assist. But it's North Korea's big brother that we need to be wary of, as they can do the same thing, providing their smaller ally with an assist.
It'd turn out to be like "A Private Little War"... though not precisely.

As a government the only threat NK causes is possibly taking out our bases in SK. However, until they can even event a missile that can make it past Japan, they are no threat to us domestically. Personally, as private citizens, some of us do have concerned because we have family in SK. So NK is always weighing on our minds as a threat. As for the Chinese, they really have no control or say, and for the most part have distant themselves, from NK due to a lot of their recent actions. Chinese government has stated that they would not get involved in any conflict between North and South so long as the US or its allies did not step foot in NK.

If we would have just allowed McCarthur to do what he wanted back in the Korean war, NK would have never been a threat and most likely neither would have the Chinese. Instead we allowed politicians to dictate and here we are.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

NK is a threat to us but IMO a "distant" threat, not directly. So far they haven't the reach to touch us. They may invade South Korea again (?) and we can say we are protecting "our interests" there by providing an assist. But it's North Korea's big brother that we need to be wary of, as they can do the same thing, providing their smaller ally with an assist.
It'd turn out to be like "A Private Little War"... though not precisely.

North Korea is a threat to stability in the region, and that concerns us directly.

In fact, if you've been paying attention, the US is beginning the process of again shifting our military attention to SE Asia / Australasia. We're moving to open bases in the Philippines again, and we're exploring our options with Australia / New Zealand and etc. China's military ambitions are unknown, but their military power is growing. A rogue nation like NK threatens everyone in the region.

 

[Master Dan]

One of the good things that came out of the Wiki leaks was the Embassy communictions from China saying they no longer needed Nth Korea as a buffer in fact it would be good business for unification that left them out on a limb all by themselves and I noticed the Sth and the US take a much more vocal and active stance to the latest agression by them in 2011 and all they have done since is empty retoric because they know China ain't got thier back anymore it is my hope that undergound soscial media will work its way in and the desire of north and south relatives to be united and have free exchange will happen some day like Germany??

When I was in Korea 2008 just as global econmic crisis hit I was supprised how non threatening and even people organizing to raise funds to supply new communication equipment to the north after in a typical stunt they cut all lines becasue they wanted new stuff but after Wiki leaks and they shelled that village it has changed unless you have something recent to say different?

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think there is anything we can do directly. We have been in two wars for more than ten years, making both our nation and our military war weary. We are broke and financing military intervention would be difficut at best. Sanctions have been in place for a long time and are a big part of the reason the regular people in NK are suffering, but if we lift those sanctions, a large part of that money would go to the NK government and not the people. China's support of NK has diminished greatly. They have decreased much of thier financial support and not as vocal about thier philysophical support of the government. The only way the NK government is going to topple in a short term scenario is if they attack South Korea. If nothing else, the North Loreans would see how well the South Koreans are living and would start to question thier government. The US and her allies would in all likelyhood crush North Korea if they invaded, including strategic attacks on comand and control in the north. While the key figures of the government might squirell aqway in bunkers, they would no longer be able to effectively control or supress thier population. I don't think another war in southeast asia would be worth it, though to see the conditions in NK are indeed heartbreaking.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think there is anything we can do directly. We have been in two wars for more than ten years, making both our nation and our military war weary. We are broke and financing military intervention would be difficut at best. Sanctions have been in place for a long time and are a big part of the reason the regular people in NK are suffering, but if we lift those sanctions, a large part of that money would go to the NK government and not the people. China's support of NK has diminished greatly. They have decreased much of thier financial support and not as vocal about thier philysophical support of the government. The only way the NK government is going to topple in a short term scenario is if they attack South Korea. If nothing else, the North Loreans would see how well the South Koreans are living and would start to question thier government. The US and her allies would in all likelyhood crush North Korea if they invaded, including strategic attacks on comand and control in the north. While the key figures of the government might squirell aqway in bunkers, they would no longer be able to effectively control or supress thier population. I don't think another war in southeast asia would be worth it, though to see the conditions in NK are indeed heartbreaking.

I'm not sure who the US allies would be if an invasion of North Korea was mooted, with the best will in the world it won't be us, we simply don't have enough military power to enter another war. The government is busy making troops redundant as well as cutting spending as it is, we can barely manage Afghan let alone another front. Other NATO countries have smaller forces than ours and are also involved in Afghan and UN peace keeping forces in various places so I'm afraid you'd end up on your own. I think too that the appalling cost to us in the last Korean war would also mean the country would say no to another war there.

 

[Instructor]

How about a campaign similer to the Berlin Airlift. Fly over and drop supplies and news in. I realize the threat to the cargo planes is extremely high from surface to air missiles. Perhaps we could use unmanned drones or something. Might be a hell of a psy ops campaign and risk to life and limb is relatively slight. Even if they blew up the drones the stuff would rain down in N. Korea where it might do some good. i know losing drones is expensive but it would be more expensive for them losing surface to air missiles.

 

[oftheherd1]

I don't believe China would take no action in a conflict involving North Korea and South Korea. Like any country with the capability, they will take whatever action they deem in their best national interests. It makes no sense to me that a free Korea, sharing a fairly long border with them, would be considered in their best national interests. Nor that of Russian, which also shares a small amount of common border with them.

miguksalam - as to McArthur, what part of his policy and the way he advocated to achieve it, were so good?

 

[Instructor]

Perhaps the smart play is enlist China's help in a humanitarian airlift mission, if they turn us down they look like slime.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Air lift to where?

The Berlin Air lift was to the half of Berlin that was not controlled by the Russians. An Air lift to North Korea would be dropping supplies into... North Korea. Also there is a MAJOR propaganda campaign in North Korea against just about everyone outside of North Korea

The Chinese are far from happy with North Korea but they would be far less happy with western forces in the air or on the ground that close to them. Also you have to understand Beijing cannot understand why anyone cares what goes on outside of thier own country unless it is a direct threat and the frankly do not care what the rest of the world thinks of them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Air lift to where?

The Berlin Air lift was to the half of Berlin that was not controlled by the Russians. An Air lift to North Korea would be dropping supplies into... North Korea. Also there is a MAJOR propaganda campaign in North Korea against just about everyone outside of North Korea

The Chinese are far from happy with North Korea but they would be far less happy with western forces in the air or on the ground that close to them. Also you have to understand Beijing cannot understand why anyone cares what goes on outside of thier own country unless it is a direct threat and the frankly do not care what the rest of the world thinks of them.

Agreed. You also have to keep in mind that we routinely offer food and other aid to North Korea as an incentive for just TALKING about disarmament and nuclear weapons, etc. They accept it, let us send in a few boats full, then they slam the door and refuse any more aid shipments. Read Google News - story after story about them changing their minds and reneging on their agreements. Year after year, it's like the same broken record. I actually posted all the links here once just for fun; I stopped at two dozen times they've reneged just in the last decade.

So really? Screw 'em. Their people are starving and it's their fault. It is within their power to fix that. We have ZERO responsibility for that.

 

[tkd1964]

As I've said, a people oppressed will rise up against their oppressors when they get sick and tired of being sick and tired. It happened in Egypt, Libya and other places it will eventually happen in North Korea. Until then it's not our say to intervene. It's horrible, it's inhumane but at the risk of all out war, it's best to wait it out.
NK is a threat to us but IMO a "distant" threat, not directly. So far they haven't the reach to touch us. They may invade South Korea again (?) and we can say we are protecting "our interests" there by providing an assist. But it's North Korea's big brother that we need to be wary of, as they can do the same thing, providing their smaller ally with an assist.
It'd turn out to be like "A Private Little War"... though not precisely.

If you are closed off from the outside world, how do you know you are oppressed.

 

[tkd1964]

If there could be first an end to the war between North and South, then a process could be started with South Korea helping the North rebuild. The North has the Juche philosophy self reliance. It would be Korean helping Korean. If they build new industry with North Korean labor, farming with real farm equipment, not oxen, and gradually open up to the outside world, the North Korean people will prosper. But this won't happen due to their Socialist teachings. They have,or had, open markets where people could sell their goods but the reporter was not allowed to go in to see the Market by her handler because it went against the Socialist teaching. Until the leadership is gone there will be no change.

Taekwon!!

Mike

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If there could be first an end to the war between North and South, then a process could be started with South Korea helping the North rebuild. The North has the Juche philosophy self reliance. It would be Korean helping Korean. If they build new industry with North Korean labor, farming with real farm equipment, not oxen, and gradually open up to the outside world, the North Korean people will prosper. But this won't happen due to their Socialist teachings. They have,or had, open markets where people could sell their goods but the reporter was not allowed to go in to see the Market by her handler because it went against the Socialist teaching. Until the leadership is gone there will be no change.

Taekwon!!

Mike

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304724404577295463062461978.html

 

[miguksaram]

I don't believe China would take no action in a conflict involving North Korea and South Korea. Like any country with the capability, they will take whatever action they deem in their best national interests. It makes no sense to me that a free Korea, sharing a fairly long border with them, would be considered in their best national interests. Nor that of Russian, which also shares a small amount of common border with them.

I am sure if they felt their interests threatened they would, similar to how we would never get involved in a war unless our interests were threatened. While I cannot find the official statement, they simply said that they would stay out of it NK invaded SK. However, if US crossed the 38th then they would jump in. I agree, that it is in China's and Russia's best interest to keep Korea separated. A united Korea would be a strong one to deal with.

miguksalam - as to McArthur, what part of his policy and the way he advocated to achieve it, were so good?

First, nothing is ever good about war. Sometimes you have to choose the greater of two evils in order accomplish a mission. In this case it would have been to bomb NK, using an a-bomb. After pushing back the NK past the 38th, he knew that he could drive them further to the Manchurian border. It is here that he advocated the use of an atomic bomb to wipe out that area which would have halted further intervention of China as well as dealt a strong if not final blow to the NK army. While the devastation would be great, it most likely would have stopped this war, kept Korea united and, in the long run we would have seen a third world country become a more powerful nation sooner that they had. Not to mention that the images that people are seeing of NK would not exist.

 

[miguksaram]

So really? Screw 'em. Their people are starving and it's their fault. It is within their power to fix that. We have ZERO responsibility for that.

It sounds as though you feel the population voted these people in? They didn't. In fact many people have attempted time and time again to escape there. Some will not even try to do that much because if they succeed, they know the government will kill their family members who are left behind. Again, how can a scarcely fed, unarmed population rise up against a heavily armed, well train military regime without some sort of outside help?

 

[miguksaram]

If there could be first an end to the war between North and South, then a process could be started with South Korea helping the North rebuild. The North has the Juche philosophy self reliance. It would be Korean helping Korean. If they build new industry with North Korean labor, farming with real farm equipment, not oxen, and gradually open up to the outside world, the North Korean people will prosper. But this won't happen due to their Socialist teachings. They have,or had, open markets where people could sell their goods but the reporter was not allowed to go in to see the Market by her handler because it went against the Socialist teaching. Until the leadership is gone there will be no change.

Taekwon!!

Mike

I wouldn't even say this is socialist. It is more totalitarian mixed with dynastic leadership. If you look closely you would swear that they are reliving the ancient ways of the three kingdoms. They have a king who hands down the leadership to his son to be the next king. This has gone for 3 generations. They have a court full of ministry advisers and a kingdom of servants. All they are missing are the old fashion hanboks, some swords and a few horses.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It sounds as though you feel the population voted these people in? They didn't. In fact many people have attempted time and time again to escape there. Some will not even try to do that much because if they succeed, they know the government will kill their family members who are left behind. Again, how can a scarcely fed, unarmed population rise up against a heavily armed, well train military regime without some sort of outside help?

That is the problem of North Korea - its people and its government, and not ours.