Ninjutsu Everywhere!!!

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not...

What are you referring to here???
Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult...

A perfect way to be a true Martial Artist!!

Thank you sir!

 

[Supra Vijai]

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to your childish attitude towards the other users of this forum because everyone doesn't agree with you. Sorry but I find this thread quite the opposite. Yes it has random Anime references, yeah it has Pro Athletes pulling moves out of Streetfighter, Yes it has cartoons but it ALSO has authentic, historic information relating to the different schools out there and what they claim to be teaching. You said you were doing a doco on all types of back woods ninjer groups (except the ones that are spouting crazy stuff) yet when someone points out why Koga Ryu ninjutsu is a fallacy, you claim the whole site is BS. I'm sure there are plenty of sites out there that will give you what you want. For a back woods ninja school you may be interested in, check out Kevin Hawthorne (www.khninja.com) I'm not going to say he's legit or a fraud or anything like that. He teaches some skills that would probably interest you and a lot of other people, then again he teaches some weaponry that isn't traditionally Ninjutsu. To each their own. On this forum though, you probably won't have the best luck getting any "good" feedback on the people mentioned above.

All the best. Bye. Please close the door on your way out.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

Well,

To be honest I'm having a difficult time finding this post to be relevant to the question at hand.. although many users of this site are very helpful and informative I was referring to this thread in particular when I mentioned that it was full of BS.. and as for me being childish once again I find that there are more insults thrown back and forth rather than encouragement for each others growth in martial arts...

I feel that people such as yourself are simply taking to far into the fact that you feel that your Busting Frauds and weeding out the fakes...

There are a lot of different approaches to many Martial Arts and weather you want to accept the fact or not that people WILL do there own thing regardless of what an old guy in japan has to say about it, we will continue to train hard and persevere!

I find it funny that this whole Ninjutsu General discussion topic has so many bashers in it, and very few who encourage growth!

I hope that in time people that read this will understand that all it takes is acceptance of others to find a peace between us...

I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....

Thank you!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well,

To be honest I'm having a difficult time finding this post to be relevant to the question at hand.. although many users of this site are very helpful and informative I was referring to this thread in particular when I mentioned that it was full of BS

It is not full of BS. The last couple of posts were poking fun, since this thread had been abandoned from the moment I debunked the 'koga ryu in Genbukan' issue that ronin had been pushing. Up to there this was a serious discussion. So that is about 80 posts of serious discussion, with an undisputable conclusion, followed by some joking when ronin did not want to admit he was wrong and disappeared.

There are a lot of different approaches to many Martial Arts and weather you want to accept the fact or not that people WILL do there own thing regardless of what an old guy in japan has to say about it, we will continue to train hard and persevere!

And if you had read my previous posts, you would have known that we are not saying anything bad about that. Have fun and train hard. I never claimed that you need an old guy in Japan. However, if there are no documented links with Japan and a decent transmission of knowledge, what they are doing is not ninjutsu. It's a Japanese name for a very specific system with specific concepts. Even ignoring lineage issues: much of what these groups are doing is going against the concepts embedded in authentic ninjutsu. So why use the ninjutsu name? That's like saying a bulldozer is a ferrari because it has wheels. They're 2 different things. Not better or worse, but for different conditions.

I find it funny that this whole Ninjutsu General discussion topic has so many bashers in it, and very few who encourage growth!

I hope that in time people that read this will understand that all it takes is acceptance of others to find a peace between us...

I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....

We encourage growth. We just don't encourage people to abuse the 'ninjutsu' moniker for things that are really not ninjutsu at all, because they go against all the concepts that ARE ninjutsu.

I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....

No void here.
But if you really think we are being meanies, then please go over to budoseek or martialartsplanet or bullshido and ask them for advice.

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

Sure thing...

Thank you for your response...

Blessings to you!

 

[mook jong man]

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

WHAT??? Im not to sure about the last one there???

Is it another Insult??
Thank you for your PICS??

 

[Cryozombie]

What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not...

What are you referring to here???
Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult...

A perfect way to be a true Martial Artist!!

Thank you sir!

A true martial artist also keeps his word... I thought you quit Martial Talk?

 

[Bruno@MT]

A true martial artist also keeps his word... I thought you quit Martial Talk?

Yep. If you get all huffed up with indignation and tell people you'll leave, the polite thing is to follow trough.

Please let us know where you go to. If you think you are being treated mean here, you have no idea what you are going to be treated like on MAP or budoseek.

 

[Chris Parker]

Wow,

So I came back to this forum to see if maybe anyone has posted any info and just as I suspected its full of BS...

Good bye Martial Talk and good riddance!

So the question has to be, why did you bother to post this comment in the first place? I'm actually going to go back to your original post, as well as parts of the thread itself, and point out why you have had the responses you have, as well as highlighting your reactions to them. This probably won't be pretty....

Im trying to find as many small orginzations in ninjutsu to exammine and gather as much info as possible, Im looking for little dojos and small groups. Not the Kans...

Any suggestions???

This (above) is your original post. Essentially, we had no idea what you actually meant here, hence my request for clarification right below:

Hi,

I notice in your Meet and Greet post that you state you direct/operate a Ninjutsu training dojo. Can I ask what you are refering to there, if it is not one of the 'kans?

With regard to the above post, not really sure what you're after there. Are you after the less-legit (Neo-Ninja) groups? Honestly, if you are, the info is not going to actually be much to do with actual Ninjutsu, the Kan's and the various split offs from them are going to be your best source.

Frankly, to be Ninjutsu an art requires a historical link to the arts associated with the ninja of Japan (and by that I mean a real link, not taking the name of a long-dead Ryu and attaching it to whatever you make up). So Neo-Ninja groups don't qualify there, I'm afraid. The only legit groups (in other words, the only ones with any actual claim to the title Ninjutsu) are those that have passed through Takamatsu, which means Genbukan, Jinenkan, and of course Bujinkan. Now, there are a number of smaller split-off groups, and one larger one (Toshindo) that can also claim the same thing, in terms of those schools in the US, I only know of a couple (and a few in Canada, then one or two in Europe, and some in Australia), however I don't have details on their exact locations, nor am I about to vouch for any of them staying true to the historic systems (quite a few seem to have gone in rather odd directions, for example). For that, you would need to hear from those who are either studying or teaching in those schools, or at least aware of them in their location.

Now, you have come along here to ask for that, which is fine, but you have then gotten rather upset at the fact that no-one fitting that description answered... which is most likely due to the fact that the membership of this forum isn't gigantic (few are, really), and the very limited section of the Ninjutsu community you are asking for simply aren't members here or probably anywhere. You then got further upset when it was pointed out that unless there was the aforementioned historical link, we would not accept that fantasy-driven ramblings of people with no business being allowed near a dojo, let alone teaching, writing books etc are actually anything to do with Ninjutsu, and therefore, to us, have no place if you are actually looking for Ninjutsu. Okay?

Then:

I was under the impression this was for General Ninjutsu discussions, Ive got a small project Im working on independently to find all there is out there.. Im very aware of all the Tew ryu, Dux ryu, Ashida Kim and Chosen... Which to be honest I like the Chosen guy.... Im not to worried about the Big-Kans due to all the back and fourth debate as to who's who and what's what.. I study the teachings of all that are teaching... I think the whole picture is great and a mystery in it self,

Simply put if there is a guy you know of, teaching a Ninjutsu style or running a Dojo, Im simply looking for a little info on them..

Please try not to read into this to much its really simple...

I'm going to take that one bit by bit....

This is the General Ninjutsu forum. That means that general discussion of Ninjutsu happens here, not that it is the non Bujinkan forum. It is more about training ideas, products, various teachers etc etc etc. The other is the Traditional Forum, which deals with Ryu-ha specific concepts, history, and so forth. You seem to be mis-interpretting what the forum is about.

You like Choson Ninja? Everyone has their own taste, but for the record, he has nothing to do with Ninjutsu whatsoever. And, to be honest, he leaves a lot to be desired as a martial artist.

The whole picture is indeed great... but it doesn't include the above-mentioned groups. At all. They have as much to do with Ninjutsu as crepe suzette does.

I'm going to skip over things such as "I am a student of Nin (?)" .... and "Our Ryu is doing just what ninja or bushi alike would do... Gather Info... (?)", as these are just out in so many ways, showing a great lack of understanding of this subject, which is really the crux of your issues with the forum.

Once again to specify, Im simply looking for anything I may have not seen or found myself.. Im simply looking for the names and info of small groups that are training in Ninjutsu.. Ive read the stickies and ive read the posting for newbies and all that... Im interested in finding back woods groups like mine.. its nothing else...

If you must know Im working towards producing a documentary on the American Ninja Movements.. So people like Rick Tew, Frank Dux Ect are people Ive researched... Its to simply dig deeper into Mask that Ninjutsu has created for itself..

I figure joining this forum would be fun but so far its kinda Sketchy..


Good day.

And here they start to appear.

Rick Tew and Frank Dux are some of those that I refered to above. Researching them is nothing to do with researching Ninjutsu, so we wouldn't be recommending them (waiting for Josh to chime in now....). When it comes to you deciding this forum is "sketchy", that is simply you not getting the answers you wanted, mainly due, as I said, to the people training in these systems not posting here, and those concerned with actual Ninjutsu not classing those as Ninjutsu, therefore not relevant to the discussion. Asking for something is fine, again, but getting huffy because you don't get an answer, or the answer you want is frankly rather childish. I'd suggest growing up.

My question was simply to find some info on schools, Im not looking for an authority in ninjutsu...

You may not have been looking for an authority in Ninjutsu, but by posting on a forum dedicated to Ninjutsu, you will find people who know what it is. And frankly when they pointed out the problems with your approach, your knowledge, your experience, your terminology, and so on, you have decided that we are out to attack you. We're not. We're trying to correct you so that you can learn and grow in the arts. If you can't take that on board, then frankly don't post on a forum.

Mostly to verify the entire aspect of ninjutsu... I love Bujinkan don't get me wrong, But as I Examined To-Shin-Do it seemed more welcoming and the curriculum was great! Ive had run ins with Kan folks like everyone does..

To be honest.. Im not here to let every one tear apart my school or my teachers... I was here to learn and express a love of an art..

Im not interested in sharing with you now.. Why would I now that all have mocked and carelessly make underlining comments and so fourth..

Thank you...

The thing that strikes me here is that you seem to see a difference (in terms of what makes up the teachings) between Toshindo and the Bujinkan. Toshindo is Steve Hayes' organisation, and is based primarily on his training and decades of experience in the Bujinkan. It is really just a different approach to the same material. Teaching styles can and do vary, but to think that the Bujinkan arts and the Toshindo arts are that removed shows lack of understanding of those as well.

At this point there was no mocking, you are frankly being far too sensitive and seeing things that aren't there. The "underlined" comments are also not present. Seriously, go visit MAP, see how you go there. Questions are not attacks, neither are corrections. If you can't handle them, avoid all forums. This is the gentlest you will find in this area.

What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not...

What are you referring to here???
Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult...

A perfect way to be a true Martial Artist!!

Thank you sir!

It means, as Supra said, you are acting like a child demanding attention. You left for a few weeks, came back, and made the initial post quoted in this post... why? Then, to top it off, you didn't go anywhere! You started another thread two hours later!

The other thing I'm noting here is that you seem to be only able to take things absolutely literally. You show no ability to determine the symbolic message in posts such as Elder's, or the other less-literal postings here. Every post that doesn't agree with you is someone rejecting you, or mocking you. No, they aren't. Honestly that makes me wonder about whether or not you have been checked for any form of mental disorder. That is not an attack, it is a legitimate question. Your posting style shows a rather odd thought process, which leads me to believe that something may be there.. although I'm not going to voice what I think that is. But if there is something that may help us understand you, let us know. If we assume (as we tend to) that you are rational, sane, possess critical thinking, and so on, then you are posting rather oddly. On the other hand, if there is something there, we will take that into account when addressing you (note: that will not make your invented Ryu with no real experience nor Ryu structure legit or necessarily accepted... but we will know where you are coming from). Okay?

Really, it's as was said at the beginning of this thread. If Kumori Ryu is after something authentic, something that can legitimately be called Ninjutsu, then all he's got to look at is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and legitimate off-shoots (note: not people who took a bit of training in a Kan, then went off and came back as "Soke" or "An-Shu", or even "Menkyo Kaiden" in arts that have no substantiation, or even particular skill-sets that don't have those titles applied to them. I'm sure you can think of who I'm refering to here....). If the actual authentic aspect doesn't matter, and it's just anyone with the cool badge, using the name whether there's anything to support it or not, then he can look at a lot of groups, but it really defeats the idea of looking for "ninjutsu" in the first place. After all, if it's not Ninjutsu, it's not Ninjutsu, no matter what it's called.

Read this again.

Then read it again.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Kumori, if you still care I can tell you about Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.

Our founder was a 4th dan in the bujinkan and taught in Toshindo for a long time before splittling off and doing his own thing. Our system has teachings from 12 martial arts traditions.

Koto Ryu
Gyokko Ryu
Togakure Ryu
Gikan Ryu
Kumogakure Ryu
Gyokushin Ryu
Eishin Ryu
Kukishin Ryu
Daito Ryu
Kyu Shin Ryu
Shinden Fudo Ryu
Tagaki Yoshin Ryu

If you are interested you can view more at www.jizaikan.com

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

Himura Kenshin,

Thank you for the link and Info... Im glad to see that there are a few out there like us!!


Chris Parker, Bruno,

Sorry, but youve proven to me that you are not a fan of my school or teachings, very well, point taken thank you! Yes, I do go back and fourth between wanting to leave, However there are a few in the wood work that have shown me that there are good hearted non-baised people on this forum and for that I have decided to stay...

Thank you again for your input!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Chris Parker, Bruno,

Sorry, but youve proven to me that you are not a fan of my school or teachings, very well, point taken thank you! Yes, I do go back and fourth between wanting to leave, However there are a few in the wood work that have shown me that there are good hearted non-baised people on this forum and for that I have decided to stay...

Thank you again for your input!

So ... we (Chris and I) are not good hearted or non-biased?
You wouldn't know about the first, and you are wrong about the last.
I am very non-biased. It would be better to call me a sceptic.
I believe in authenticity and historical accuracy. You have neither.

I also think that the reason you stay here is because you know that this is about the only forum where you will not be hounded, ridiculed and insulted.
You no doubt feel that Himura Kenshin's story validates your approach, but there is a difference between a 4th dan with a ton of experience, and a 6th kyu newbie who is still discovering the basics. The former is qualified to teach, the latter isn't.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Sorry this is probably classed as hounding and ridiculing etc and there's not a whole left for me to reply to with all the other posts but:

I'm not weeding out or busting frauds Kumori. I don't have the knowledge, experience and expertise to do so. I'm often just as impressed watching a Sith lightsaber type duel as I am a Kenjutsu kata till someone points out why certain things are wrong or not ideal with the former. I'm learning Ninjutsu myself, a 5th Kyu Green Belt and I'm only just starting to scratch the surface yet that tiny start of a scratch is enough that I don't presume to know what I'm talking about or try teach. If I wanted to fraud bust though, I could get a lot meaner but I won't because I like this forum and don't particularly want to get banned over something so silly...

Secondly the finding peace between us makes me think of gang wars. Like Bloods vs Crips or something. I'm just sayin....

Oh and as for the void, why do I want to fill it? Go back and ask your instructor, moving/acting from the "void" is the highest ideal in Ninpo and we all know Ninpo becomes a way of life so it makes sense that you can apply the same ideals outside your art. Something that'll take years if not decades to get to. Having had exposure to To-Shin-Do, I'm sure you're aware of the elemental approach to the Sanshin. Kuu no Kata (Void form) is what we aim for. It's right there in your signature by the way. "Mu-Shin" No Mind... Use No Mind. Not ridiculous fantasies, arguments or tantrums (from anyone on either side, not attacking you per se) but calm, controlled actions and behaviours. That's how I'd say I'm starting to see "training in Nin" anyway.

As I said, good luck finding whatever it is you hope to find

 

[Kumori Ryu Ninja]

Thank you for your post supra,

I have nothing but the best of wishes for you...

Take care...

 

[Aiki Lee]

Mr. Maienza's credentials (Founder of Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu):

30+ years continuous training in martial arts
7th dan in Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu
7th dan in kyu shin ryu aiki jujutsu
5th dan Toshindo and Shihan instructor in Hayes organization
5th dan American jujitsu
4th dan bujinkan ninpo
3rd dan aikido
1st dan shotokan karate
1st dan kodokan judo
1st dan tae kwon do

Mr. Eichenberg's credentials (dojo-cho of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and Jizaikan Kan-cho)

30+ years continuous training in martial arts
5th dan Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu
3rd dan Toshindo and senior instructor in Haye's organization
Graduate of Executive Security International
USMC marksmanship instructor
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is why Mr. Mienza can create his own organization and people don't question it, because he has master level ranking in other martial arts.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Mr. Maienza's credentials (Founder of Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu):

30+ years continuous training in martial arts
7th dan in Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu
7th dan in kyu shin ryu aiki jujutsu
5th dan Toshindo and Shihan instructor in Hayes organization
5th dan American jujitsu
4th dan bujinkan ninpo
3rd dan aikido
1st dan shotokan karate
1st dan kodokan judo
1st dan tae kwon do

Mr. Eichenberg's credentials (dojo-cho of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and Jizaikan Kan-cho)

30+ years continuous training in martial arts
5th dan Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu
3rd dan Toshindo and senior instructor in Haye's organization
Graduate of Executive Security International
USMC marksmanship instructor
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is why Mr. Mienza can create his own organization and people don't question it, because he has master level ranking in other martial arts.

Hey Himura, NO disrespect intended at all here but how did he manage to get 5th Dan in Toshindo and a 4th Dan in the Booj? I thought the 2 were kinda mutually exclusive? Not to mention the whole you can't train in another organization when training with the Kans thing. Just curious. No doubts in the world that he's got mad skillz

 

[ronin7411]

It is not full of BS. The last couple of posts were poking fun, since this thread had been abandoned from the moment I debunked the 'koga ryu in Genbukan' issue that ronin had been pushing. Up to there this was a serious discussion. So that is about 80 posts of serious discussion, with an undisputable conclusion, followed by some joking when ronin did not want to admit he was wrong and disappeared.



And if you had read my previous posts, you would have known that we are not saying anything bad about that. Have fun and train hard. I never claimed that you need an old guy in Japan. However, if there are no documented links with Japan and a decent transmission of knowledge, what they are doing is not ninjutsu. It's a Japanese name for a very specific system with specific concepts. Even ignoring lineage issues: much of what these groups are doing is going against the concepts embedded in authentic ninjutsu. So why use the ninjutsu name? That's like saying a bulldozer is a ferrari because it has wheels. They're 2 different things. Not better or worse, but for different conditions.




We encourage growth. We just don't encourage people to abuse the 'ninjutsu' moniker for things that are really not ninjutsu at all, because they go against all the concepts that ARE ninjutsu.



No void here.
But if you really think we are being meanies, then please go over to budoseek or martialartsplanet or bullshido and ask them for advice.

Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html

 

[Supra Vijai]

Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:

A) What does us having memberships on MAP et al have anything to do with anything?

b) When were you bothered? (obviously I don't know about any PM's etc but purely based on this thread, no one has said anything to you except in reply to when you posted. The bulk of this thread has been back and forth between us delusional children and Kumori Ryu Ninja)

By taking the time to find those links and post this reply telling us to leave you alone, you've successfully pulled yourself away from your training - with no help from us!

 

[ronin7411]

Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:

A) What does us having memberships on MAP et al have anything to do with anything?

b) When were you bothered? (obviously I don't know about any PM's etc but purely based on this thread, no one has said anything to you except in reply to when you posted. The bulk of this thread has been back and forth between us delusional children and Kumori Ryu Ninja)

By taking the time to find those links and post this reply telling us to leave you alone, you've successfully pulled yourself away from your training - with no help from us!

A) That's simple you're going to run into the same people there telling you the same thing and doing the same activities here which is also called trolling

B) You don't seem to remember when I told Chris (should I also point out that you address as Sensei) to grow up and if he can't handle the same criticism he gives other people to shut up and don't say anything at all

By the way Supra I believe I was correcting something that Bruno said that I disappeared after the Koga Ryu connection to the Genbukan was proven to be "wrong" and besides like I said you X-kans have more problems to worry about than me a fake Koga ryu practitioner. I can start off with one of your future concerns... student retention since the X-kans are having that problem just like they did with keeping Bussey, Hayes, Law, and Loriega in the Bujinkan.