Ninjitsu "streetfighting"

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hey, another question: I called this guy up from this Ninjitsu club/dojo in my area, where I'm thinking of starting, to ask about Ninjitsu (I'm a beginner MA)...and he basically described Ninjitsu as "Japanese streetfighting"...said the style they teach is very aggressive, offensive, and destructive...ie, in a self-defense situation, it's very effective at taking a dude down (by the impression I got, the opponent tends to get hurt badly during the process!).

What are your thoughts on that? Still being a novice in the field, I dont know what to make of it. What do the experts out there (you guys) have to say?

Oh...he says that whenever his student enter fights, they clean the floor...to such an extent, that other gyms dont want to fight against them. That likely, or just bragging on his part?

 

[928Porsche]

I am studying ninpo, not ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is only a part of the curiculum.

It is possible to hurt someone very badly with some throw or sweep. But with ninpo, that is not the only option. Its possible to throw or sweep someone and not hurt them badly. Its your choice. Ninpo, ninjutsu is not the end all beat all of martial arts. It can be very effective, but it is the martial artist that must be effective, not the art.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Sounds like crap. But if he's the real deal he's a jackass as a person.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hey dudes, so I went to the dojo the other day to check it out...being a public holiday, it was a pretty small class (6 people of the usual 30-odd)..4 of whom were 6th kyu students.

Because of the few numbers, Sensei decided not to do syllabus work, but "street combat" techniques (for a lack of a better name).....MAN, was I impressed, this dude is one lethal mother!! Take no nonsense attitude (wide as a barn with the skills to match)...yet willing to help at all costs and answer all questions I posed. Very cool dude.

Every technique he demontrated to the students till they perfected it, showing it himself and allowing students to try it on him. Which appeals to me, he doesnt see himself as above his students...he actively gets involved in his teaching.

The one thing I did discover though, is that he seems to have little reservation in teaching his students how to break someones arm/leg/shoulder should they be put in an defensive situation in a pub/street etc. That concerns me a little. Although I must point out that in every move, he always offers an alternative eg. move like this and he'll be in a wrist-lock, move like this and you'll break his wrist. Always two options, put your opponent in pain and offer him a submission, or simply break his joint if he persists.

Now I understand the need for this, but is this not perhaps over the top, or am I simply being naive to the dangers out there on the streets??

PS. Because of the inherent danger of most of the moves tought, no sparring or competitions are conducted...which for me is a bit of a loss, since I beleive you need that sparring/competition to evaluate whether what you are learning works...and also to test yourself and your techniques.

What do you guys think?

 

[J-kid]

That sounds like a mcdojo line but hey you never know he just might be worried someone might get hurt. But alot of times its they dont want you trying the method because its ether to hard or it dosnt work. Not sure its up to you to do more research on the art and wether or not its right for you. Best of luck in your training .

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Actually, no quite the opposite. The techniques really do work: He showed me a couple (ouch!! Hehehe...some seriously handy techniques to make sure a dude doesnt grab you twice) and I saw the students doing them on each other, and by the expressions on their faces and by their reactions, you can see they work. All the training is done in a slow, controlled fashion with full participation by your partner.

By what I see, I can underdstand why they dont do competitions, in a fast fight, with the techniques they use, it'd be too easy to break someones arm/wrist with intending to do so (ie. in the rush of the moment, instead of just applying pain through a wrist lock, it's be real easy to snap the joint by accident)

So yes, from what I see, the techniques work (very WELL!!)...but being of a particularly possible devastating nature, I dont see how you could spar or tourny...it's just way too dangerous.

But thanks for your opinion Judo-kid, and keep sending...I apreciate them all.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi

... The one thing I did discover though, is that he seems to have little reservation in teaching his students how to break someones arm/leg/shoulder should they be put in an defensive situation in a pub/street etc. That concerns me a little. Although I must point out that in every move, he always offers an alternative eg. move like this and he'll be in a wrist-lock, move like this and you'll break his wrist. Always two options, put your opponent in pain and offer him a submission, or simply break his joint if he persists.

In Jujitsu we don't offer a submission. If some guy attacks us, we either use the lock to control him for long enough to put him on the floor, or we break the joint. Simple as that. And you probably are underestimating what a street situation is like. If someone attacks you for real, your choice is either of the folowing:

a) Get beaten up, mugged, killed, whatever!

b) Incapacitate the opponent by either excessive pain or physical inability to continue (broken joint)

c) Kill opponent.

Which would you pick?

PS. Because of the inherent danger of most of the moves tought, no sparring or competitions are conducted...which for me is a bit of a loss, since I beleive you need that sparring/competition to evaluate whether what you are learning works...and also to test yourself and your techniques.

What do you guys think?

You can test to see if the stuff works without sparring. In my style of Jujitsu, we have Vs, cicles and gauntlets, all of which involve a fellow student coming at you with a random armed/unarmed attack. The objective is to survive, using techniques to quickly resolve each attack and stop the opponent from being able to do it again (incapacitating moves are of course pulled in practise)

There are some techniques that simply MUST NOT be used in a sparring situation, which this instructor seems to understand.

 

[Bod]

It is inherently difficult to train wristlocks at full speed. It is however easy to resist the technique if it is not done properly, so you can get a feel for how the techniques work.

I know that the ninpo people do try as hard as possible to make their training realistic, training at 3/4 speed and half power.

They can get a bit cerebral about the whole thing, and because they don't practice their throws at anything like full speed their throwing skills can be a bit poor. Still, not all trainers train like this, some of them use mats to good effect.

Lastly, ninpo is a true multiple opponent art. Their footwork patterns, and insistence on beeing able to do techniques while moving in many directions is why I say this. They also train as if the opponent is holding a weapon, and the rolling practice (usually on hard floors) helps toughen you up.

If you are aware of the limitations of the practice (which I'm sure they would like you to be) then you'll be fine.

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

So then Aegis, based on what I've described and briefly seen, what's the difference between jujitsu and ninjitsu??

To me, they seem to be fairly similar to one another? :karate:

 

[Aegis]

I think that currently what is taught in my style of jujitsu is very similar to the unarmed teachings of ninjitsu. The methods of teaching and the weapons work will be different from style to style, and even from instructor to instructor.

Can't really explain the difference without trying out both arts. I've tried the Jujitsu, now to try ninjitsu.....

Or I could just stick with what I'm learning now



Oh yeah, the philosophies of the arts are probably somewhat different too. Our philosophy is summed up by a few choice phrases, mostly used while students are trying desperatelyto stay upright:

"Train Hard, Fight Easy"

"Nothing you go through outside this dojo will compare to what I'm putting you through now"

"Give them one chance to hit you, then make them pay for trying"

"Try not to spill your pint"