New Training Clip

[KPM]

In training VT, if you hold your (right) wu on the center line and then try to move it left before punching you'll more than likely be a beat behind the action. The whole point is that the forward intent of wu is converted directly and instinctively into a punch that "cuts the way".

---Why would you be a "beat" behind? If my Wu starts on center and I have trained the drill you mention to make my response instinctive, then it takes a split second to move my Wu inward 2 inches prior to going forward with the punch. That is much less than a "beat" given that the whole thing has been triggered by the opponent pushing down the Man Sau hand as he punches. That takes much more time than me simply moving my Wu 2 inches prior to counterpunching. Now I agree that starting with the Wu in that position is better. But I don't think it has quite the significance that LJF has described. Not keeping the Wu in that position does not mean that someone's Wing Chun is "broken." You yourself said that Wu and Man are not fixed positions. So how could holding the Wu on the center mean that this is "huge failing"? It seems to be a pretty minor point to me.


More generally, wu and man are concepts and not fixed positions. Wu sau is the hand that protects when necessary but also the hand that is poised to attack with forward intent. Man sau is the hand that "tests" the opponent...like a scout sent ahead of the troops.

---Following the idea that Wu is not a fixed position, and Man is probing....it seems to me it would be better to keep both slightly in motion prior to any engagement. Let them "float" a bit sometimes inside the centerline and sometimes outside the centerline. This would be a little bit more unpredictable and confusing for the opponent. I don't really hold the Man/Wu as a guard. I use slightly closed fists held in a little closer rather than extending them like a Man Sau. And I keep them in motion a bit. This comes from sparring experience, so I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.


This is why, in my opinion, sparring with other martial artists (for combat sport efficacy) and doing personal defense scenario training (for "street" readiness) is so important. You have to "contextualize" your skills.

---Absolutely agree! So how could anyone claim someone else's system is "broken" simply because they don't hold the Wu Sau in the same place?

---I will point out again, that on that other thread the situation had been set up and described as a counter-punch being impossible without clearly saying why this was so. This is what drove many of the responses from myself and others. Had I realized that the reasoning was that the Wu Sau was thought to not be able to simply move 2 inches prior to counter-punching, then I would have never went down the road of doing a Pak Sau instead. I would have simply said...."I don't think that's true and such a big deal. I would simply move my Wu slightly and counter-punch!"

---I'll make another point as well. Even if I started with Wu on center and counter-punched straight, its not likely that I'm going to collide exactly with the opponent's incoming punch. Its more likely I'll slide along one side of it or the other. Not as predictable as holding the Wu near the Man elbow, but still deflects and strikes at the same time. In the unlikely instance where I do collide directly with the opponent's punch, then neither of us has landed a strike and the exchange proceeds from there. So again, while I see the advantages of holding the Wu near the man elbow at times (and I actually do this myself), I don't see it as a huge failing to have the Wu on center at times as well.

 

[Lobo66]

In VT drills, when someone attacks with jut/punch you are voiding your man sau immediately and punching at the same time. Your partner's jut/punch is also one action, coordinated with entering footwork. With moving your hand from center to the left before punching you are adding an action. The path of your punch is less direct, having two steps instead of one.

All this becomes a huge failing within the WSLVT specific drills. I think you would really have to experience it to understand properly. And I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just think it's something that is best understood "live".

 

[LFJ]

---Why would you be a "beat" behind? If my Wu starts on center and I have trained the drill you mention to make my response instinctive, then it takes a split second to move my Wu inward 2 inches prior to going forward with the punch.

This would be reactively running around the incoming attack line, hoping you measured and timed it right. Of course it won't be as fast and thoughtless as just punching directly.

It's not reliable either. To measure and time it right, you will have to register the incoming attack line in your consciousness, then react to it as the punch is well on its way, and get just far enough around it. It requires too much precision and under stress you'd probably end up running too wide and just trying to block. But it would already be too late anyway.

With the wu-sau already poised to fire, it will mindlessly sweep any attack line through the large space it covers as soon as the man-sau is compromised. At high speeds and elevated stress levels, we need something more automatic like this.

So how could anyone claim someone else's system is "broken" simply because they don't hold the Wu Sau in the same place?

That is not the whole argument, of course. The wu-sau concept is not just a position per se, but informs us of many strategic and tactical ideas. If even the position is wrong (in YMVT), we can bet the rest of it will be missing too.

Without it, the actions in the forms that introduce this information are just given application ideas, beginner daan-chi-sau becomes about sticking, following, and blocking rather than developing mindless counter-striking abilities with built in defense. Never mind double chi-sau and all the rest. The whole system will no longer be functional.

 

[LFJ]

---I will point out again, that on that other thread the situation had been set up and described as a counter-punch being impossible without clearly saying why this was so. This is what drove many of the responses from myself and others. Had I realized that the reasoning was that the Wu Sau was thought to not be able to simply move 2 inches prior to counter-punching, then I would have never went down the road of doing a Pak Sau instead. I would have simply said...."I don't think that's true and such a big deal. I would simply move my Wu slightly and counter-punch!"

This is not true. It was made very clear.

The very first post where the scenario was given had a diagram clearly showing this tactic of moving the wu-sau sideways to get to the outside of the incoming punch then tracking back to center in an attack. This was represented by the green line, and said to take too much time, which I think was agreed on by all.

The diagram and first post also showed how a counterpunch from center would not stop the incoming punch. Also agreed on by all. A chasing paak, represented in gray, was a last resort and really the only option left from the center guard. WC shouldn't fail this easily against a simple straight punch after losing man-sau.

---I'll make another point as well. Even if I started with Wu on center and counter-punched straight, its not likely that I'm going to collide exactly with the opponent's incoming punch. Its more likely I'll slide along one side of it or the other. Not as predictable as holding the Wu near the Man elbow, but still deflects and strikes at the same time.

In the very common scenario, as you can see in the diagram, the incoming attack lines are left of center, where the man-sau would be covering. A counterpunch from a right wu-sau on center will not intersect those lines at any point. The best result to hope for is a double knockout.

 

[wckf92]

Even if I started with Wu on center and counter-punched straight, its not likely that I'm going to collide exactly with the opponent's incoming punch. Its more likely I'll slide along one side of it or the other. Not as predictable as holding the Wu near the Man elbow, but still deflects and strikes at the same time.

KPM - I don't think this would be correct(?)
If your right hand Wu arm fires forward, and it is 'sliding along' the inside of the bad guys incoming right arm (essentially and "inside to inside" situation), how is it likely to deflect and strike at the same time given human anatomy and the way elbows bend, etc?
I could be misinterpreting your post though(?)
Thx

 

[KPM]

KPM - I don't think this would be correct(?)
If your right hand Wu arm fires forward, and it is 'sliding along' the inside of the bad guys incoming right arm (essentially and "inside to inside" situation), how is it likely to deflect and strike at the same time given human anatomy and the way elbows bend, etc?
I could be misinterpreting your post though(?)
Thx

As Sean described the drill used in WSLVT, both people are in a matched stance. So I am picturing the attacker pushing down his partner's Man with his rear hand and punching with the lead hand. The attacker would have to be punching with his rear hand to end up in an "inside to inside situation." If he is doing this and is even a little bit wide of the centerline or coming in from more of an angle rather than straight, then it is going to be very difficult to get "behind" his punch to counter-punch it on the "Tan line" regardless of where you are holding your Wu Sau. Maybe Sean can clarify for us.

 

[KPM]

And I'll note again, that this whole scenario is assuming things happen as in the drill. Typically in a real exchange you aren't standing there with your Man Sau arm extended just waiting for the opponent to knock it down and step in to hit you. You should be moving around, have a more dynamic guard, and definitely not have your hand extended out as a target! If he is close enough to smack your Man Sau hand, then you should already be moving and responding. So this whole discussion ends up being a bit irrelevant.

 

[LFJ]

As Sean described the drill used in WSLVT, both people are in a matched stance. So I am picturing the attacker pushing down his partner's Man with his rear hand and punching with the lead hand. The attacker would have to be punching with his rear hand to end up in an "inside to inside situation." If he is doing this and is even a little bit wide of the centerline or coming in from more of an angle rather than straight, then it is going to be very difficult to get "behind" his punch to counter-punch it on the "Tan line" regardless of where you are holding your Wu Sau. Maybe Sean can clarify for us.

Jat is done as an auxiliary action to open an obstructed line with the lead hand, perhaps to continue after an interrupted punch. It would not be thrown as a technique initiated from the rear hand.

You can look again at the diagram and imagine it being a lead jat and rear punch. If the defender's wu-sau is already in the correct position (the point of direction change for the green line), it will be able to cut the attacker's way. Wu on center won't help.

And I'll note again, that this whole scenario is assuming things happen as in the drill. Typically in a real exchange you aren't standing there with your Man Sau arm extended just waiting for the opponent to knock it down and step in to hit you. You should be moving around, have a more dynamic guard, and definitely not have your hand extended out as a target! If he is close enough to smack your Man Sau hand, then you should already be moving and responding. So this whole discussion ends up being a bit irrelevant.

Of course. We're talking close-quarters fist-fighting though. We aren't standing out at arms' length exchanging punches. It is very possible and common to have man-sau compromised at that range as the distance is closed. That's why we need intelligent recovery options.

 

[Danny T]

I learned all the positions base on the wrist position not the hand

 

[LFJ]

I learned all the positions base on the wrist position not the hand

Elbow is the important bit for us. Not the hand nor wrist.

 

[Danny T]

Elbow is the important bit for us. Not the hand nor wrist.

Then why the discussion as to the hand positions?

 

[KPM]

Jat is done as an auxiliary action to open an obstructed line with the lead hand, perhaps to continue after an interrupted punch. It would not be thrown as a technique initiated from the rear hand.

You can look again at the diagram and imagine it being a lead jat and rear punch. If the defender's wu-sau is already in the correct position (the point of direction change for the green line), it will be able to cut the attacker's way. Wu on center won't help.
.

So then each person standing with a left Man and right Wu. Attacker steps in and traps down with a lead left Jut and punches from his rear right hand. I see the counter-punch working as long as the attacker's punch is nice and straight and traveling down the center. But how does it work if the punch is coming towards center from a wider angle, as in your outer red line on the diagram? How is the counter-punch going to get behind the attacker's punch on a Tan line when the punch is not a nice straight punch down the center? What if the attacker has pivoted a bit and his punch is coming in at an angle practically over the partner's shoulder? This would be very common coming from an opponent that doesn't do Wing Chun, and fairly common even from those that do!

 

[LFJ]

Then why the discussion as to the hand positions?

It enables use of elbow ideas for simultaneous defense in our strikes. If we are not starting from the correct positions, these won't be possible. It will lead to thinking about wrists, and using wrists to control arms then strike, or using two arms superfluously.

 

[LFJ]

But how does it work if the punch is coming towards center from a wider angle, as in your outer red line on the diagram?

Right wu-sau would start from the point of direction change on the green line, already wide of the incoming red lines.

Anything wider is basically shoulder or past. To get a line to the head from that angle would require a round punch. Already discouraged by the well-guarded left side, and defendable by the paak/shoulder shrug as described earlier if too late for other movement.

What if the attacker has pivoted a bit and his punch is coming in at an angle practically over the partner's shoulder?

You might be exaggerating quite a bit? If the attacker is in front of us and just pivots with jat-da, they will not be able to get that far to the side, whether with lead leg or neutral stance.

Even if doing a toe pivot from a neutral stance, it wouldn't be wider than the outside red line, and they'd be giving up a lot of space, allowing us more freedom of movement, and weakening their punch by pivoting away from their attack line.

To get to a position to attack with a straight punch from the side like that, they'd have to take a big step around us while we stand still and don't keep facing...?

 

[Danny T]

It enables use of elbow ideas for simultaneous defense in our strikes. If we are not starting from the correct positions, these won't be possible. It will lead to thinking about wrists, and using wrists to control arms then strike, or using two arms superfluously.

We use the elbow and wrist. Elbow is most important but we aren't concerned with the hands at all.

 

[paitingman]

In VT there are basically two paths depending on how the elbow travels : inside to outside (concept tan sau) and outside to inside (concept fook sau). We have various drills to help develop both concepts. It's important to remember that these are "system specific", and serve to develop attributes for both

I was under the impression that Tan and Jum were the main elbow concepts in WSLVT based on old postings. am I mistaken?
Could you clarify for me and discuss differences in the Fook and Jum elbow concepts?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KPM]

Right wu-sau would start from the point of direction change on the green line, already wide of the incoming red lines.

----Then you seem to be assuming the punch is coming significantly inside of your shoulder line if you are getting your Wu hand behind it. Again, that is a relatively straight punch.

Anything wider is basically shoulder or past. To get a line to the head from that angle would require a round punch.

----No it wouldn't. In Pin Sun we often approach "from side to center" rather than right up the middle. We would do a pivot step and throw a punch meant to travel on that outside red line and go just in front of the shoulder to contact the chin. It would be very improbable that someone could get behind this to do a "Tan line" counter-punch regardless of where their Wu hand starts from. Also, one of the favorite "sucker punches" used by street fighters is a slightly curved punch that goes right over the victim's shoulder to contact the chin. This is just on the edge of peripheral vision and hard to see. It is relatively tight and there is no way you are going to counter-punch it. A lot like the boxing example that Sean gave, but tighter. Its like turning a Bong Sau into a punch. Not that "round" just not a perfectly straight angle.


Already discouraged by the well-guarded left side, and defendable by the paak/shoulder shrug as described earlier if too late for other movement.

---But I thought in your scenario your Man has been taken off-line and therefore the left side is no longer well-guarded? And I thought you dismissed using a Pak Sau as "inefficient" and "chasing hands"???



You might be exaggerating quite a bit? If the attacker is in front of us and just pivots with jat-da, they will not be able to get that far to the side, whether with lead leg or neutral stance.

---What makes you think that? A slight step as you pivot and you are there. Standard footwork in Pin Sun. And not weak at all because the pivot is still powering the punch. If someone has time to step in as they are doing that Jut Da, they certainly have time to step-pivot and come at an angle rather than straight up the middle.


To get to a position to attack with a straight punch from the side like that, they'd have to take a big step around us while we stand still and don't keep facing...?

---Nope, not a big step at all. And I'll ask again.....how is this going to work against someone not throwing a pretty standard straight punch? Do you only train to go up against a fellow Wing Chun practitioner? The way we train in our Pin Sun we try and avoid spending a lot of time on things that only apply to facing someone else doing Wing Chun. This includes a lot of the fancy multi-step moves you see in some people's Chi Sau. Like some of the complicated "Lat Sau" training in WT. We don't do that kind of thing.

---So if I've got this straight.... in the scenario as you have defined it, the only time having the Wu positioned next to the Man elbow becomes advantageous is when an incoming punch is relatively straight and on the centerline or just inside of it. If it is not straight, you can't get behind it with the counter-punch. If it is coming from the other side of the centerline, then whether your Wu is near the elbow or on the center doesn't really matter because you can easily get behind it with the counter-punch either way. So really, the Wu next to the elbow is a good idea, but only really an advantage when facing another Wing Chun guy who is going to be throwing pretty straight punches right up the centerline.

 

[dudewingchun]

Nice video.

Was that feeding drills or sparring for you?

 

[Lobo66]

Thanks dude.
Those were just feeding drills to practice various counter attack concepts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think not using kicks for primarily damage is pretty wasted. If you've ever taken a hard kick to the side of the knee... It just cripples you.

Only wasted if they don't produce a useful result. There are many ways to use a kick that are helpful, but don't do the kind of damage you're thinking of. There's more than one workable approach to any given scenario.