This is so helpful for my exact dilemma. I'm not considering quitting at all, but sparring is what I've become discouraged with at 6 weeks. This is a practical way of understanding how improvement may occur - thank you!
New Student: when will you quit?
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
This is so helpful for my exact dilemma. I'm not considering quitting at all, but sparring is what I've become discouraged with at 6 weeks. This is a practical way of understanding how improvement may occur - thank you!
NewbieJeff
White Belt
Certainly a great post that I found very helpful as I’m looking to start soon. This will always be in the back of my mind as I begin my journey.
That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.
Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
Trainer, I'll quit...
When I realize that your martial art is a fake
There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
- during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
- sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
- speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
- maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
- katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
- In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
- the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
- ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
- kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
I'll quit when you no longer train me
I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
- you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
- you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
- you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
- you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.
Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
Trainer, I'll quit...
When I realize that your martial art is a fake
There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
- during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
- sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
- speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
- maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
- katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
- In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
- the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
- ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
- kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
I'll quit when you no longer train me
I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
- you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
- you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
- you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
- you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.
What an interesting way to create a first impression.
Retrofit
White Belt
Hmm, to me it sounds like you have been looking for fighting in a point-based karate style, so comparing shotokan with KK, Muay Thair, etc makes it super clear that you wanted the latter. Also, you might have been to "bad" dojos, that didn't help you understand that. I any case, I am glad you have found a solution that works for you, motivation is key and if you don't get it frorm your training you need to change something!
Good job though, it isn't easy to restart in new classes, takes alot of energy. Osu!
Just an FYI, the original poster was not a trainer. In fact, I don't think he ever was.
Christopher Adamchek
Purple Belt
A very nice read!
It sounds like you want to develop your skills as a fighter.
It sounds like you would like to develop your skills as a fighter, why go to a good MMA school. I think it would be a good fit for you.
I assume you don't know that some of the best full contact karateka fighters are Shotokan?
You won't see any 'one style' fighter in MMA, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts, you know, with lots of different styles and techniques from different styles mixed in.
Actually I suspect you know far less than you think you do...…..
Loved the film, that is how we spared in the 70's early 80's.
Does Shotokan still spar like that?
As far as I know they do, like all styles there's good, bad and indifferent places. You can't generalise about a style just because one place you train isn't so good. I don't train Shotokan, my instructor did, I'm Wado Ryu ( yes we spar full contact when with suitable partners) Shotokan I've been told is ideal for bigger people, Wado for small because of the way stances etc are in the respective styles.
I really hate it when people slag off a style based on misinformation and bias.
More misunderstanding and ignorance.
The definition of kata is that it is a system of individual training exercises so yes you do have them in tennis, football basketball, etc. No one in martial arts actually claims they are preparing you for a fight, they are individual exercises in techniques and a record of those techniques. Bruce Lee's teacher, Ip Man, an acknowledged, tested fighter, taught him forms. Not everyone does kata, those that do find benefit in them, it's not up to you to decide they are wrong. Arrogance is never a pleasant thing to see in a martial artist.
Sorry, all I can do is chuckle to myself here. It really is quite amusing that you think you can learn from a video better than with a proper instructor is laughable but crack on, the first time you have to defend yourself or compete will show you why I'm laughing.
As long as he reins in the arrogance and the 'I know it all ' attitude.
Unfortunately, some people do claim that very thing.
Even more unfortunately, some people believe them...
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Ip Man was a tested fighter?
How exactly?
Having done both kata-based arts and non-kata based arts (mainly martial sports), I give the nod to the latter in preparing you better for actual fighting.
Ip Man was a tested fighter?
How exactly?
Having done both kata-based arts and non-kata based arts (mainly martial sports), I give the nod to the latter in preparing you better for actual fighting.
I didn't say anything about Ip Man and fighting actually, you're making things up again, the quote was about what Bruce Lee said about kata and I pointed out his instructor did and also taught him kata so please get it right. Bruce Lee wasn't a 'tested' fighter either btw.
Think what you like about kata even though you have often shown you know little about it but it will actually do more for you than trying to teach yourself from random videos off the internet which is what that poster is doing.
Teach/prepare - you had not previously specified a contextual difference in the interpretation.
But now that you have - it can directly prepare you to fight just as much as it can directly teach you to fight.
(In case I'm not being clear, imo it can't.)
You seem to think I'm saying it can teach you to fight, I'm not because that's NOT what kata is for, it's for civilian unarmed self defence not fighting.
However the poster is still wrong because in many sports individual training is done which is what kata is ( whatever you think it's for, it's still individual training). Golfers practise on a driving range, tennis players hit balls fired at them from a machine, basketball players practise shooting hoops, football ( proper football not American) players practise shooting penalties. BJJers practice shrimping and other drills. Boxers shadow box which is actually the same as a simple kata, it is a solo practice of techniques.
That's not what I got from your post at all...
Edit to add: I'm agreeing with what you said by the way, there's no need to look for a way to argue with me.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well, I can agree with that. Kata is better than nothing, though it is pretty close to nothing.
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