Need some School Feedback Please

[Jade Tigress]

As some of you know we recently relocated from the Tennessee mountains to the Chicago burbs.

My son and I were studying Sil Lum Kung Fu in Tenn. for a little over 2 years before moving and I am looking to continue training in Kung Fu here.

My son is in special ed classes due to neurologically health impaired issues. At the IEP meeting I had at his school last week the PT said many of her students go to this TKD school in the area. She is impressed with the way the instructors work with special ed kids. While this is very appealing to me in regards to my son, I know little about TKD as a martial art and have concerns over the general commercialism of the art. I know there are legitimate TKD schools however.

This one appears to put an emphasis on Olympic style training. I know my son would enjoy the atmosphere of a school like this and especially the kicks and board breaking. This is fine with me except I am wonderiing if he will be able to use anythiing he learns with this type of training for self-defense purposes.

Will you knowledgeable TKD people please give me your thoughts on this school and some insight into the self defense aspects of TKD?

Thanks. :asian:

 

[Kreth]

I'm not a knowledgeable TKD person, but if you want practical self-defense applications, I would avoid a school that focuses heavily on point sparring. The main reason, IMO, is that it encourages an unrealistic way to address your opponent. Many students will have a very bladed stance, ie. perpendicular to the line of attack. In point sparring, this works well, as it makes it easier to defend the usual targets. IRL, however, this exposes the defender's back.

 

[Gemini]

The school does look very commercial and I doubt he would see much of master Ha. However, that doesn't mean he wouldn't receive quality instruction. A school developes a reputation for dealing with special kids by tailoring a regeme around their current and potential capabilities. I've posted numerous times about my own son and the benefits his instruction in TKD has been to him, so to avoid another "oh, Gemini and his son story again" I'll leave it at that. We can take it off line if you'd like further information.

As far as the SD abilities he'll gain from it, all I can say is the instruction will be there, but what use he makes of it will be up to him. Without knowing more about him, it's difficult to say more. Tell them the circumstances and let them explain to you what he'll need and benefit from. I have a feeling you'll pick up on sincerity from BS.

 

[HKphooey]

I agree with Gemini... says a lot that a school focuses part of their training for special needs children. I would try to talk to some of the parents with children enrolled in that school.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, that's what my concern was. My son really loved Kung Fu and loves sparring. But we don't do point sparring in Kung Fu. He loves using the control moves he's learned and has used some of his knowledge to keep bullies at bay with success. So, it was my hope to have him continue training in that vane.

Also, he was the only special needs kid in his kung fu class and did fine. He has motor planning issues along with some other neurological deficiencies. He just progresses at a slower rate...he has motor processing issues...specifically Sensory Integration Disorder and Apraxia.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I have a couple of other questions:

First, how old is your son?
Second, is his attention span/focus normal for his age?

I would tend to agree that a more traditional TKD program that incorporates
elements of Hapkido would be better for self-defense, and IMO, would be a
"deeper" curriculum that your son could potentially enjoy and explore for the rest of his life, but because of his special needs, I think the teacher and the
atmosphere of the school is the primary consideration for now. I really think you need to visit a few schools and observe first-hand how the kid's classes
are managed, and observe how normal kid-to-kid conflicts that typcally arise
are handled by those in charge. Regardless of style, a good teacher is the most important thing. This is even more important for kids. Watch how the teacher treats other kids when they don't understand a concept. Watch
how (or if) the teacher handles a situation where a kid misbehaves, or worse, picks on another kid in class.
Notice who the shyer/quieter/slower kids are, and seek out their parents for
their experience/opinions on the program.

I'm in the West Suburbs of Chicago. Not sure what part of town you're in, but don't hestitate to ask or PM if I can help further.

Good luck.

 

[Kacey]

I agree with Martial Tucker - you need to check the school out in person. However, as a special education teacher, I would be leery of the program being recommended by the school - there are legal issues there that you may not be aware of... as long as they are only saying that other students with special education needs are doing well there, that's one thing; if they're specifically recommending it, then there are legal issues around them having to pay for it - which are not really relevant to this discussion, but which I would be happy to discuss with you privately.

As far as the movements in TKD, I have had a string of students with special needs (I have 3 right now, in fact - one 13 year-old with a psychiatric disorder, 1 adult with cerebral palsy and a developmental delay, and 1 adult with Down's Syndrome) - and in the past I had one who had a neurological problem that serious affected his coordination. According to his mother, in the first 3 months this boy was in my class, his coordination and ability to use both sides of his body equally improve by 16 months - a massive jump. Unlike other sports he had tried, TKD required him to use both sides of his body, which was just what he needed.

There is no way to say that one school is good or bad just from the webpage. As with the special education issues, I would be happy to discuss this with you in more detail privately.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I have a couple of other questions:

First, how old is your son?
Second, is his attention span/focus normal for his age?

My son is 12. His attention span is not normal for his age. He is easily distracted and very active.

I would tend to agree that a more traditional TKD program that incorporates
elements of Hapkido would be better for self-defense, and IMO, would be a
"deeper" curriculum that your son could potentially enjoy and explore for the rest of his life, but because of his special needs, I think the teacher and the
atmosphere of the school is the primary consideration for now.

Actually, I think there is a Hapkido school nearby...I'll check it out may be posting again for advice on that one...

I really think you need to visit a few schools and observe first-hand how the kid's classes
are managed, and observe how normal kid-to-kid conflicts that typcally arise
are handled by those in charge. Regardless of style, a good teacher is the most important thing. This is even more important for kids. Watch how the teacher treats other kids when they don't understand a concept. Watch
how (or if) the teacher handles a situation where a kid misbehaves, or worse, picks on another kid in class.
Notice who the shyer/quieter/slower kids are, and seek out their parents for
their experience/opinions on the program.

I'm in the West Suburbs of Chicago. Not sure what part of town you're in, but don't hestitate to ask or PM if I can help further.

Good luck.

Good advice. Thank you. I'm in Lake in the Hills. (you don't happen to know anything about kung fu schools in the area do you???)

 

[Jade Tigress]

I agree with Martial Tucker - you need to check the school out in person. However, as a special education teacher, I would be leery of the program being recommended by the school - there are legal issues there that you may not be aware of... as long as they are only saying that other students with special education needs are doing well there, that's one thing; if they're specifically recommending it, then there are legal issues around them having to pay for it - which are not really relevant to this discussion, but which I would be happy to discuss with you privately.

Thanks Kacey. The program was not actually recommended by the school. It came up in passing during an IEP meeting. The OT, knowing that my son was studying kung fu...due to his constant talking about it, lol...mentioned that several of the kids she works with take classes at that TKD school and that she has observed classes and likes the way the instructors work with special needs kids.

As far as the movements in TKD, I have had a string of students with special needs (I have 3 right now, in fact - one 13 year-old with a psychiatric disorder, 1 adult with cerebral palsy and a developmental delay, and 1 adult with Down's Syndrome) - and in the past I had one who had a neurological problem that serious affected his coordination. According to his mother, in the first 3 months this boy was in my class, his coordination and ability to use both sides of his body equally improve by 16 months - a massive jump. Unlike other sports he had tried, TKD required him to use both sides of his body, which was just what he needed.

This is what kung fu has been doing for my son in regards to SI disorder and apraxia. Because of forms practicing it works on the motor planning and processing abilities that he struggles with most. The free sparring and chin-na fill his tactical needs, and control moves and bag work help develop his low muscle tone. Not to mention the leap in confidence it has given him.

There is no way to say that one school is good or bad just from the webpage. As with the special education issues, I would be happy to discuss this with you in more detail privately.

You're right about that but sometimes you can pick out the red flags from a site. In any case, it's best to visit but since I know so little about TKD I thought I'd get some feedback here first. :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, that's what my concern was. My son really loved Kung Fu and loves sparring. But we don't do point sparring in Kung Fu. He loves using the control moves he's learned and has used some of his knowledge to keep bullies at bay with success. So, it was my hope to have him continue training in that vane.

Also, he was the only special needs kid in his kung fu class and did fine. He has motor planning issues along with some other neurological deficiencies. He just progresses at a slower rate...he has motor processing issues...specifically Sensory Integration Disorder and Apraxia.

I have many of the same coordination and neurological issues as well, and, as a teenager, just straight TKD worked BY FAR the best for me. Jiu Jitsu and associated arts such as Hapkido, with its joint manipulations, just didn't work for me. It took me a year to move up a single kyu.

That's great news about the bullies. They can destroy a child's formative years if left unchecked. Good for him!!! :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Another thing to remember is that one can be a student in many different arts. When I was a kid, I tried a lot of stuff out and I really learned alot about the Martial Arts in general. When I got to college I found a really good teacher and decided to settle down with one art and see where it went.

The bottom line is that as far as fostering my interests in the martial arts goes, having the freedom to explore was very beneficial.

Try it. If it doesn't work out, try something else...

 

[Jade Tigress]

Thank you Jonathon and upnorthkyosa...excellent points...maybe it is best as he is young to let him try a variety of things and let him choose his interests and I can continue to search out a new kung fu school for myself. We'll see..I have thinking to do on it...I'll keep you posted.

 

[Yeti]

Jiu Jitsu and associated arts such as Hapkido, with its joint manipulations, just didn't work for me. It took me a year to move up a single kyu.

Wow, I thought the same thing - those types of techniques take a lot of patience and time to learn. It may not be the best fit, even if it is part of a TKD curriculum.

TKD can work just fine in just about any self defense situation no matter what style of TKD is learned. Yes, there are differneces in stance and approach in an "olympic" style school, as others pointed out, but training is really what you make of it. A kick used to break a board can also be used to keep an opponent at bay, and I bet the punches used in TKD are remarkably similar to the punches you learned in Kung Fu. If this school was recommended by a person (or persons) you trust and they've had success dealing with students with similar challenges to your son's, then by all means it deserves to be seen first hand. Ask questions of both students and parents and observe the students in and out of a class environment. That may reveal more than you realize.

Not to push you away from TKD, but have you looked into any Kung Fu schools in Chicago? I did a quick Google search and there are many to choose from. You did not specify (or if you did I missed it) whether you took northern or southern kung fu (sil lum as I understand it translates to shaolin) but there were schools ranging from Wing Chun to Preying Mantis. Many of these schools may offer a curriculum very similar to what you had been learning so picking up may not be that difficult as what you've learned may easily translate.

I wish you and your son the best of luck in your training - no matter what style you choose. Martial arts have helped me in ways I can not begin to describe and I'm glad to hear that your son is enjoying them as well.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Wow, I thought the same thing - those types of techniques take a lot of patience and time to learn. It may not be the best fit, even if it is part of a TKD curriculum.

TKD can work just fine in just about any self defense situation no matter what style of TKD is learned. Yes, there are differneces in stance and approach in an "olympic" style school, as others pointed out, but training is really what you make of it. A kick used to break a board can also be used to keep an opponent at bay, and I bet the punches used in TKD are remarkably similar to the punches you learned in Kung Fu. If this school was recommended by a person (or persons) you trust and they've had success dealing with students with similar challenges to your son's, then by all means it deserves to be seen first hand. Ask questions of both students and parents and observe the students in and out of a class environment. That may reveal more than you realize.

Not to push you away from TKD, but have you looked into any Kung Fu schools in Chicago? I did a quick Google search and there are many to choose from. You did not specify (or if you did I missed it) whether you took northern or southern kung fu (sil lum as I understand it translates to shaolin) but there were schools ranging from Wing Chun to Preying Mantis. Many of these schools may offer a curriculum very similar to what you had been learning so picking up may not be that difficult as what you've learned may easily translate.

I wish you and your son the best of luck in your training - no matter what style you choose. Martial arts have helped me in ways I can not begin to describe and I'm glad to hear that your son is enjoying them as well.

Excellent points on translating TKD techniques to self defense situations. Thank you. I know there are a ton of kung fu schools listed in the chicago area..however I am actually in the burbs...the Choy Lay Fut school I wanted to attend moved to China Town which is about 50 miles from me and a very long drive in traffic around here...I was very disappointed to find out they moved.

As far as kung fu schools in the Northwest Suburbs where I'm located..the search has been difficult. I now have 2 messages in to a city based Wing Chun school that supposedly has a branch in my area but they do not list the location and I have not received a return call yet. Even if/when I am able to talk with and visit the school there is no guarantee it will legit...so..I'm really frustrated...there is an excellent mantis school nearby but at my age I'm concerned I may have difficulty with the extreme low stances.

Sil Lum is a southern Shaolin style and I am searching for a southern style kung fu school to continue training.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Update on my school search here

 

[IcemanSK]

Update on my school search here

I'm glad you're at least pointed in a direction that suits you.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Update on training for my son.

I cannot find any kung fu schools I've contacted that will train children. So, I went and visited Ha's Tae Kwon Do school that I asked for feedback on when starting this thread. I have to say I was very impressed with the school and with the instructor, he is Korean and very difficult to understand but was absolutely fantastic with my son.

My son is interested in the type of training Tae Kwon Do offers. He loves to spar, he loves kicking and wants to learn to break boards. And he also discovered upon visiting the school that a neighbor boy he plays with regularly goes to the same school. So, I signed him up. Had to sign a 1 year contract but that's ok.

My son will begin training next week and I am very excited for him. I know nothing about Tae Kwon Do so will probably be back with questions as he begins training in a new art.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

 

[Kacey]

Speaking as a TKD instructor who has had numerous students with special needs (ranging from sciatica to DSM-IV diagnosed mental illness to cognitive delay to cerebral palsy) TKD with the right instructor can be wonderful for anyone who is interested in it - and it sounds like you've found a good instructor. Do you know whether this class is WTF or ITF? I only ask so I will use the (hopefully) correct terminology when answering, as it varies between federations.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Speaking as a TKD instructor who has had numerous students with special needs (ranging from sciatica to DSM-IV diagnosed mental illness to cognitive delay to cerebral palsy) TKD with the right instructor can be wonderful for anyone who is interested in it - and it sounds like you've found a good instructor. Do you know whether this class is WTF or ITF? I only ask so I will use the (hopefully) correct terminology when answering, as it varies between federations.

Thanks Kacey. I think it's WTF. What are the differences?

 

[Kacey]

Thanks Kacey. I think it's WTF. What are the differences?

Sometimes terminology (ITF = L stance; WTF = back stance; same thing).

WTF is Olympic sparring - target area is, broadly, groin to shoulders; ITF is not Olympic - target area is, broadly, belt to top of head.

There are also some stylistic differences, which vary by association.

ITF is Ch'an H'on (Blue Cottage) TKD (The Encyclopedia of TKD), and WTF could be any of the 9 kwans established in the 1950s. Some WTF practitioners use the ITF tuls (patterns); others use poomse by various other kwan founders of the time.

There are people who prefer ITF over WTF (I'm one, because that's my training source) and vice versa. ITF is more prevalent in some areas; WTF in others.

As far as the differences go, however, I wouldn't worry about it too much - as long as you've found an instructor that works for your son, that's really the important part, and the rest is all detail.