Nationalized health care data.

[Cruentus]

Not here to engage in a heated arguement of the subject, but I was just wondering if anyone has any hard data regarding health care. Particularly our (U.S.) current privatized system vs. nationalized systems.

The only thing that I have is the World Health Org. rating that rated all countries in terms of quality of care, and the U.S. was #37 with nationalized systems ahead of it. I know that the largest polling organization in England found that despite complaints regarding National Health Care, most of these were due to underfunding concerns, and an overwhelmingly large percentage of the people polled agreed that a privatized system is not the answer to any problems they might have.

But, that is all I have found. Don't have any additional data in support of nationalized HC, and I have absolutely nothing in support of privatization.

Data anyone?

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

This thread got buried fast! Anyone got anything?

 

[Marginal]

Nope. It's totally indefensible.

 

[Flatlander]

Well, upon which criteria were the rated countries in the WHO report rated?

This is a challenging subject, in terms of data analysis, to create an argument for either side. IMO, its a subject best argued from the point of ideal. I feel this way primarily because you'd have to find a country that switched from one style to the other, while compiling data along the way.

 

[Cruentus]

Regardless. This is such an important subject (especially here in the U.S. where we are basically in a HC crises), so one would think that there would be more hard data out there.

As to the WHO criteria, I know it is public info, but I don't have the info off hand...

but that would be good to know as well to see if the data is biased or not.

Paul

 

[bushidomartialarts]

might be worthwhile to look at countries with nationalized health care or states that have tried similar (like the oregon health plan)....

 

[bydand]

Hard data I do not have, what I have is YEARS living within 15 miles of the US/Canadian border and a wife who is a RN. The majority of the nurses and Doctors she works with are Canadians (very talented bunch I might add) because they cannot afford to do what they love in Canada. A big number of people they see in the Hospital are Canadians who do not want to wait MONTHS to be seen for procedures that are vital (chemo, dialysis, etc...) and are willing to pay out-of-pocket over here. According to the nurses and Doctors we know, the system does eventually work, but it can be a SLOW, SLOW process.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a National plan over here, but, I think we would need to look at all the Nationalized systems and find the best out of each in order to work with our population base and not send our tax rate as high as Canada's. I only compared with Canada, not because I am picking on them, but it is the system I have seen in action the most. I think our size and population would pose problems that some of the well working systems don't encounter.

 

[CanuckMA]

There is also a large flow of HC professionals going back to Canada. And when you look at tax rates, both individual and corporate AND at the HC premiums paid in the US, the rates are not that far apart. The Canadian system is not perfect. OTOH, look at the Health section on any MA forum, and see how many posters are seeking medical advice because they can't afford to go to a doctor. I want my system to be improved, but when I look south of the border and see over 10% of the population that is not covered by any healthcare, I just cringe.

 

[Cruentus]

A couple of things.

#1. For this issue, it is really important to look at data vs. anecdotal evidence, hence why I started this thread. Personal experience filtered through perception is valuable in some cases, but can be very misleading on this issue. This is especially because many people tend to look at the negative aspects of the system that doesn't fit their worldview. So, if I am an advocate for smaller governent, and believe that adequet health care isn't a right, but something that people need to take personal responsability for, then I am going to tend to focus on the negative aspects of nationalized systems like waiting lists and such. If I believe that as a society we all have the responsability to ensure that everyone has access to adequete health care, then I would tend to focus on the negative aspects of privatized systems.

Compelling arguements can be made on both sides, but data doesn't lie (although the interpreters of data can be skewed). So, that is why it is important to look at data to find out which really would work best rather then what best fits our particular viewpoint.

2. CanuckMA's opinion echo's the vast majority of the opinions of people under nationalized HC plans, at least according to the largest polling organization in England (the name escapes me right now of the org). Most people, according the polls, who have complaints about their national system see a private system as a far worse way to go.

3. Anyways, I would still like to find some more data, so keep it comin'...

Paul

 

[Marginal]

Hard data I do not have, what I have is YEARS living within 15 miles of the US/Canadian border and a wife who is a RN. The majority of the nurses and Doctors she works with are Canadians (very talented bunch I might add) because they cannot afford to do what they love in Canada. A big number of people they see in the Hospital are Canadians who do not want to wait MONTHS to be seen for procedures that are vital (chemo, dialysis, etc...) and are willing to pay out-of-pocket over here.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=1732483&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

 

[bydand]

CanuckMA, Don't get me wrong, I think our system stinks! Health care cost are out of control, and if you and your spouse do not have a plan through work, it is almost totally out of reach for people to buy a health plan. I have 4 kids and if it wasn't for my wife having a health plan through the hospital, it would run us over $1500 a month for health insurance that was any good at all. I only used the Canadian system as a reference point because it is the only National Plan I have any passing knowledge of, and then only in limited areas (Mid-Ontario and North Western New Brunswick).

Tulisan, I agree with your points as well. It is too easy for somebody to focus on their pre-conceived ideas too "prove" their stand. I wish there were an easy answer, and some real hard and fast data that stand out one way or the other. I know that I sound like what my father would describe as a "Mugwump" (somebody that is sitting the fence with their mug on one side and their wump on the other, trying to decide what side to take.) but I see great positives on both sides of the argument. What I hope to learn from this thread you started was some good data that isn't skewed by others with an agenda.

 

[CanuckMA]

Bydand, I took it at face value. Our system is far from perfect. I'd look at France or the Nordic countries for a better model. But between mine or yours, I prefer mine. At least I know I can get care.

As for the waiting lines, they exist, but they do vary. I had to get a back operation 2 years ago. It did take 6 weeks to get the CAT scan, but it took 2 days to see the head of neurosurgery in what is deemed to be the best neurosurgical ubit in Ontario, and I was on the table a week after that.

Somewhere between the rethoric of all private and all public is a middle ground that offers universal coverage at reasonable cost and where the treatment decisions are left to the doctors, not the insurance companies.

 

[bydand]

Totally agree!! CanuckMA (by the way, I like using "Canuck" and not getting the "Die, die" look) For a dentist I go over to Canada because his prices are so much cheeper than here in the states and he is a great guy that loves what he is doing and a great contributor to the community he lives in. I rather enjoy supporting someone like that, no matter where he works and calls home; and no matter what system he practices under.

 

[Cruentus]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=1732483&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

That was a very interesting article, Marginal, thank you...

Paul