Nationalistic pride and the arts

[Bob Hubbard]

Recently, I've been seeing a resurgence in what can at best be called Nationalistic Pride, and at worse complete racial bigotry in several art discussions. The basic argument is that unless one is genetically of the race or a native of the culture or trains in the place of origin of an art, one can only hope to be a wannabe.

I find this idea rather, stupid, to be blunt.

While once can make the case that each art is originally designed for the physical attributes of a particular culture/ethnic group, the great majority of them are not so hard to tweak to fit a different physical frame.

I've seen comments like "Only Filipinos can excel at FMA", "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be subpar", "Only a Korean can do real TKD", etc. I see these as just as bigoted and stupid as "only a black can play basketball" or "only an Italian can make authentic pizza".

So....am I crazy?

Or can a tall white Polish kid from California really develop into a Kung Fu Grandmaster when he's 80?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No Bob, discussion such as those are ridiculous,racist and bigoted.
I to have seen this and it is just sad that some people feel that way.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Rich Parsons]

Recently, I've been seeing a resurgence in what can at best be called Nationalistic Pride, and at worse complete racial bigotry in several art discussions. The basic argument is that unless one is genetically of the race or a native of the culture or trains in the place of origin of an art, one can only hope to be a wannabe.

I find this idea rather, stupid, to be blunt.

While once can make the case that each art is originally designed for the physical attributes of a particular culture/ethnic group, the great majority of them are not so hard to tweak to fit a different physical frame.

I've seen comments like "Only Filipinos can excel at FMA", "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be subpar", "Only a Korean can do real TKD", etc. I see these as just as bigoted and stupid as "only a black can play basketball" or "only an Italian can make authentic pizza".

So....am I crazy?

Or can a tall white Polish kid from California really develop into a Kung Fu Grandmaster when he's 80?

********* WARNING WARNING *********

Bob,


I have a problem with these types of comments as those making them are being racist and do not even realize it most times. They are repeating what they have been trained too from their culture and or family or society.

Now, when someone like Don Roley (* Sorry Don, you make a good example here *), makes comments like from his experience the best instructors are in Japan, this is different then saying one can only learn in Japan. One is giving their opinion based upon their experience and knowledge, the other is discriminating.

I have a simple test:

If a comment such as "No non-pinoy can learn the true art" (* Pinoy being a term in Tagalog used to describe someone from the Phillipine Islands, and usually male. *) I then substitute in the word "WHITE".

"No non-White can learn the true art". This will cause an up roar by just about everyone out there.

Case in point while attending the University Of Michigan - Flint, I was part of the Student Council and one fo the offices I held was Legal Affairs. Usually this just means make sure the council follows to rules and guidelines and also apparoves clubs constitutions and guards the students and the Student Government from basic leagl issues.

I refused to approve a club which was the National Association of Black Accountants aka NABA. This is a good organization and they try to promote awareness and help all minorities in a predominately White/Caucasion degree or job. So why would I refuse to approve their constitution.

The Constitution stated to be a member of the club one had to be Black or Hispanic and to be officer one had to be Black or Female.

I substituted White for the other races and it was obvious to many why I would not. But there were a few that did not want it to be open to all. There was already an Accounting Club on Campus that was associated with a Frat and they were predominately White. So I could see the need, and I could also see that most of them would not go join their club, so having it on paper that any student can be a member (* which is a requirement of any club at the U of Mich *), would not be a real problem.

So the few who did not wish to change it, got upset and submitted ti again with no changes. I refused and I also refused a third time. The Second time I provided examples. In the third I wrote it for them and asked them if they woudl present it. Nope they insisted on having it their way. So after the third refual no more for that semester and also time had passed as well. So they went and talked to all the Minority staff including the Minority Affiars department. They attended the next council meeting to address my discrimination against them. I had large groups of African-Americans who were calling me names and threatening me and also causing problems if I was in the same class with them. All they were told was that I was being racist and discriminating against them.

So when the all the major players of the University showed up early and I was there, I invited them to join us at the Table, instead of sitting off to the side. Most of them knew me and those that did not were like cool this guy is fine and willing to work with us. When president came in to call the meeting to order, I motioned to move directly to this issue so we could address is early as opposed to the end of the meeting. It was approved. Then the spokeman asked who the RACIST of council was who refused to approve a club for Blacks.

I replied I refused to approve but I am not racist. I then asked for a moment of their time. I then read the clubs constitution out loud and replaced Minorities with White and Female with Male. I then asked them if that was a racist constitution and should be denied? They all agreed it should. I then re-read the constitution as written and asked if it was Racists. The answer was Yes. They were very upset for being dragged in to this type of issue. They then asked me if I would be willing to approve a new constitution. I said the by-laws do not allow it. I would need approval from the Chancellor and for the monies associated to it. The Minority Affairs chair said he would approach the Chancellor on the issue. I then pulled out the one I wrote for them which was theirs only removal of the racists comments and the comment that any current student maybe a member of the club.

I then asked those present if they would then consider my one request. That those involved would apologize to me, and that they could not be an officer for the first semster as their leadership skills were already in question the new club needed good leadership. They agreed, but those who had refused to change it originally, had left the meeting without apology. I told the Minority Affairs Chair to just let me know what the Chancellor decided and I would approve it get them going.

It was approved and the new officers apologized for not understanding my original concerns as the original offenders had refused to join the club if they could not be the officers, as they were soon to graduate.

All ended up well.

But Racism and or National Pride or what ever one wishes to call it, may be acceptable in other countries, but really is not acceptable in general public here in the States. Yes it exists, but they still wear masks and or say it in their homes or back fields, it is not institutionalized.

So by people continuing to propogate these comments it is just like those comments about African-Americans who were told they could never be smart enough to read or write because of their skin color.

********* WARNING WARNING *********

But that is just my opinion and thoughts on this issue.

PS: I am American Mute, with American Indian enough to have faced Racism and still face it today. Including going for an interview and not checking race for it was optional. The HR person told me I had too as they were a Governement contractor. I could refuse but then they could not hire me. So, I checked Caucasion, and when he read he held it out and said, "Are you sure?" - The issue is the Ameican Indian is far enough back I do not qualify legally nor do I have tribal sponsorship, nor can I get it, as my Grandmother burned the paperwork when she got it years ago. She thought it was for the best. I hope others do not have to feel it is for the best to deny their heritage.

 

[Don Roley]

Now, when someone like Don Roley (* Sorry Don, you make a good example here *), makes comments like from his experience the best instructors are in Japan, this is different then saying one can only learn in Japan. One is giving their opinion based upon their experience and knowledge, the other is discriminating.

EEEEEEEP!!!

I think I should point out that I am not talking about all arts, just my own art of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I have no idea if there are aikido practicioners that do better than the top guys in Japan or anything else.

Because in the case of the Bujinkan, all the top guys were training a few decades before any of us from outside the country even knew there were classes. And every week they showed up for training.

Give it a few generations and maybe things will change. Typically the head of the art (soke) will groom a succesor. I doubt that anyone other than a non-native speaker of Japanese will be chosen. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be understood that is still written in the Japanese version of Chaucer's English. It would be difficult to get this with Japanese of my level.

I do not think it is a matter of race. I think it is a matter of opurtunity. If the next soke moves to America and learns English, and teaches in that language, then by the time I have grandkids I expect the best folks will be in America. If I thought that you had to be racially Japanese to be good in an art, why the hell would I be spending the time I do learning where I am?

But I do know of certain Japanese that happen to think that non-Japanese can't get the full depth of a Japanese art because our Ki is different. I have been told straight out by them. They do exist, and I think their racial views are their problems and I love showing them up by excelling as best I can.

 

[Carol]

Unfortunately culture plays an aspect, too.

In many Asian communities there is a sort of culture of personal attack. Denigrating another person's attribute is commonplace, and many times encouraged. This can be for claims of national, religious, ethnic, regional (or similar) superiority.

This is is not limited to Martial Arts. Drop in on Asian religious or cultural discussion boards and one can find the same kinds of attacks...sometimes with the most revered members of the community leading the way. One person feeling insulted (righfully or wrongfully) is often all that is needed to spark an attack.

Not sure what the solution is either. Some of these habit have been in place for generations. Despite the scriptures of many different religion standing against such behaviour...and even though religion is often another source of ethnic pride...the bad behaviour goes on anyway.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hows this? After years of formal training, during an extended family get together, the subject of Martial Arts came up. Despite MY formal training, my brother-in-law, who is Korean-American was considered the expert and when someone said that karate forms their fist differenlty, he publicly corrected me - with all eyes on him, nodding in agreement. He was wrong as he formed an incorrect JKD fist (not Karate, and not even correct for the style he had "studied"); however, and the totality of his martial art's experience was purchasing and reading Volume 1 of "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method".

 

[Grenadier]

I've seen comments like "Only Filipinos can excel at FMA", "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be subpar", "Only a Korean can do real TKD", etc. I see these as just as bigoted and stupid as "only a black can play basketball" or "only an Italian can make authentic pizza".

So....am I crazy?

Or can a tall white Polish kid from California really develop into a Kung Fu Grandmaster when he's 80?

Completely exclusive statements are not truth.

However, there's a saying from the movie "The Last Boy Scout," that "every lie has 80% truth behind it."

You're more likely to find the upper echelon of Japanese Karate instruction in Japan than you would in the USA.

You're more likely to get a better quality pizza from a pizzeria in Italy than you would in America.

A black person is more likely to be a better basketball player than a white person.

The above statements are true. Despite the truth in them, though, they do not tell the entire truth.

There are many excellent Karate instructors in the USA that, dare I say, are in the same echelon as the best ones in Japan. There are a handful of pizzerias in the USA that can meet (or beat) their best Italian counterparts. There are a few white basketball players that can carry a basketball team just as well as their black counterparts did.

You can certainly find such things; it's just harder to find them in areas where such things are not normally concentrated.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

You're more likely to get a better quality pizza from a pizzeria in Italy than you would in America.

Just don't buy any pizza if you find yourself in Venice.

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't see a problem in feeling proud about ones culture. It's this attitude that unless my DNA is properly setup I can't excel at something.

I believe that with proper training, practice and more practice, anyone, regardless of culture or genetics can in fact become "the best".

After all, why would anyone waste their time busting their *** to become "not as good" or "second best"?

 

[terryl965]

I don't see a problem in feeling proud about ones culture. It's this attitude that unless my DNA is properly setup I can't excel at something.

I believe that with proper training, practice and more practice, anyone, regardless of culture or genetics can in fact become "the best".

After all, why would anyone waste their time busting their *** to become "not as good" or "second best"?

Bob I know the feeling the first time I was in Korea, about 74 my father took me to a TKD all Korean base dojaang nobody ever talk to me in 7 months there, all was said follow the other students like I had no mind and could not follow simple instruction. My father said just do as they ask when in another person country try and respect there views, when we get back home have them respect you for your talents.
I believe that phase is the best I ever heard, we need to keep this in our minds after all we all our brother of the Arts which one who knows but brother never the less.
Terry

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've seen comments like "Only Filipinos can excel at FMA", "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be subpar", "Only a Korean can do real TKD", etc. I see these as just as bigoted and stupid as "only a black can play basketball" or "only an Italian can make authentic pizza".

OK, this won't go over well based on the "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be sub par" statement but here goes.

First let me say that DNA has very little to do with it, but location can. I know little about training in Japan but since my first failed attempt at training in China I have learned a lot about training in China. I have recently switched back to training Chen Style so I will use it as an example.

First can I become very good at Chen, training in America? Yes with some difficulty.
Can I become very good at Chen training in China? Yes with some difficutly.

In America we train, with a teacher, generally 1 day a week for 1 to 3 hours. In China you train with the teacher 5 to 7 days a week for 3 hours or more. If I train Chen here, and I am, there are simply things I will not learn unless I go to Chen village to train, where you train all day 5 to 7 days a week. And face it, this is where genetics comes in, I will never be shown everything because I am not a member of the Chen family. That does not mean I am not good at Chen or that I did not figure the omitted stuff out on my own, it just means no one outside the family is shown certain things.

Also in America if you do not show up to class that is just ducky. If you do not show up in China you better have a good reason or you may be asked to leave because you are not considered serious. Also show up and train sub par a couple of times. Once again you are not considered serious and the teacher will not waste his time on you so you are again told to leave. Also if you mess up training in China, the Sifu can and will hit you and there is no legal system to turn to sue him also if you get hurt training, well it’s a part of training and you cannot sue him for that either.

Look at any martial artist, regardless of race that goes to China and REALLY trains (emphasis on REALLY) they tend to be, if nothing else faster and stronger in a shorter amount of time than it would take to get that way here. Can you get that way here in the US, of course you can, but it takes more self determination and generally it takes longer. My last Xingyi teacher wanted us to be able to stand in San Ti for 20 minutes. But that was done in 5 minute intervals, 5 minutes right, 5 minutes left, 5 minutes right, etc. But his teacher would not even begin to train you until you could do 20 minutes per side meaning 20 minutes left and 20 minutes right. My Xingyi teacher is very very good, but he is in America and trying to run a business. His teacher learned in China and was just teaching Xingyi. Standing in San Ti in China could be longer.

It is not genetics it is the type and amount of training. That is not to say that teachers in America are worse, actually many are as good and some are better. It is the way they have to train if they want to make money or the way they have to train if they want to have students. Genetics has nothing to do with it.

Or can a tall white Polish kid from California really develop into a Kung Fu Grandmaster when he's 80?

Yes and hopefully before 80.

So....am I crazy?

I am not qualified to answer that question

 

[Bigshadow]

I believe that with proper training, practice and more practice, anyone, regardless of culture or genetics can in fact become "the best".

Bob, let me know how the pregnancy and birthing practice goes!

 

[Bigshadow]

Bob, I agree with your original post. However, genetics does play a part in how well a person can do particular things.

Take for instance sprinters. Those that have the genetics for sprinting easily excel to the top of the game, where yes, others can train hard and get there, but they struggle terribly to try and keep up, but the ones who have the genetics for that type of movement and skill will excel effortlessly at it.

Another good example of how genetic determine how well we achieve something is look at bodybuilding. There are people who have the genetics to achieve the look effortless comparatively with others who find it terribly difficult to do and for many it is impossible.

Genetics play a role in what we can achieve with our bodies, but it isn't something that is exclusive to a race and certainly not to a nation (which is defined by borders and not races).

 

[Rich Parsons]

EEEEEEEP!!!

I think I should point out that I am not talking about all arts, just my own art of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I have no idea if there are aikido practicioners that do better than the top guys in Japan or anything else.

Because in the case of the Bujinkan, all the top guys were training a few decades before any of us from outside the country even knew there were classes. And every week they showed up for training.

Give it a few generations and maybe things will change. Typically the head of the art (soke) will groom a succesor. I doubt that anyone other than a non-native speaker of Japanese will be chosen. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be understood that is still written in the Japanese version of Chaucer's English. It would be difficult to get this with Japanese of my level.

I do not think it is a matter of race. I think it is a matter of opurtunity. If the next soke moves to America and learns English, and teaches in that language, then by the time I have grandkids I expect the best folks will be in America. If I thought that you had to be racially Japanese to be good in an art, why the hell would I be spending the time I do learning where I am?

But I do know of certain Japanese that happen to think that non-Japanese can't get the full depth of a Japanese art because our Ki is different. I have been told straight out by them. They do exist, and I think their racial views are their problems and I love showing them up by excelling as best I can.

Don,

My Apologies for not being clearer. I agree with your comments. You make statements that are based upon information, for a particular system. You make such comments that training with those who have taught for 40+ years would be best if possible. You also do not say one cannot learn from those who have come and trained and left and are teaching other places in the world. To me the language might be subtle, but the difference is huge.

Thank you for clarifiying and also understanding my poor attempt to communicate a thought.

 

[Rich Parsons]

OK, this won't go over well based on the "Unless you train in Japan your karate will be sub par" statement but here goes.

First let me say that DNA has very little to do with it, but location can. I know little about training in Japan but since my first failed attempt at training in China I have learned a lot about training in China. I have recently switched back to training Chen Style so I will use it as an example.

First can I become very good at Chen, training in America? Yes with some difficulty.
Can I become very good at Chen training in China? Yes with some difficutly.

In America we train, with a teacher, generally 1 day a week for 1 to 3 hours. In China you train with the teacher 5 to 7 days a week for 3 hours or more. If I train Chen here, and I am, there are simply things I will not learn unless I go to Chen village to train, where you train all day 5 to 7 days a week. And face it, this is where genetics comes in, I will never be shown everything because I am not a member of the Chen family. That does not mean I am not good at Chen or that I did not figure the omitted stuff out on my own, it just means no one outside the family is shown certain things.

Also in America if you do not show up to class that is just ducky. If you do not show up in China you better have a good reason or you may be asked to leave because you are not considered serious. Also show up and train sub par a couple of times. Once again you are not considered serious and the teacher will not waste his time on you so you are again told to leave. Also if you mess up training in China, the Sifu can and will hit you and there is no legal system to turn to sue him also if you get hurt training, well it’s a part of training and you cannot sue him for that either.

Look at any martial artist, regardless of race that goes to China and REALLY trains (emphasis on REALLY) they tend to be, if nothing else faster and stronger in a shorter amount of time than it would take to get that way here. Can you get that way here in the US, of course you can, but it takes more self determination and generally it takes longer. My last Xingyi teacher wanted us to be able to stand in San Ti for 20 minutes. But that was done in 5 minute intervals, 5 minutes right, 5 minutes left, 5 minutes right, etc. But his teacher would not even begin to train you until you could do 20 minutes per side meaning 20 minutes left and 20 minutes right. My Xingyi teacher is very very good, but he is in America and trying to run a business. His teacher learned in China and was just teaching Xingyi. Standing in San Ti in China could be longer.

It is not genetics it is the type and amount of training. That is not to say that teachers in America are worse, actually many are as good and some are better. It is the way they have to train if they want to make money or the way they have to train if they want to have students. Genetics has nothing to do with it.



Yes and hopefully before 80.



I am not qualified to answer that question

Xue Sheng,

Would it not be possible for people to learn if talented people had left the country of origin and were now teaching it in your location? If they were capable of teaching it there, then what has changed? In my opinion nothing, except others might be jealous of fame or fortune of others and are now trying to make their name. I say great make your name and teach your art, and do it well and those who want to learn it well will join you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Would it not be possible for people to learn if talented people had left the country of origin and were now teaching it in your location? If they were capable of teaching it there, then what has changed? In my opinion nothing, except others might be jealous of fame or fortune of others and are now trying to make their name. I say great make your name and teach your art, and do it well and those who want to learn it well will join you.

Absolutely, I never meant to suggest otherwise. Very likely many of the old school CMA guys no longer live in China. And if you are lucky enough to find one that is great.

I am however saying that in China you are going to train with the teacher greater than one time a week for greater than 1 hour at a time and you have to be serious to continue to train with that teacher otherwise you will not be training with that teacher. Also, not all teachers you run into in China are good, just like here you have to find one that is a good.

But when you find a good one it is the amount of quality training that you get by comparison to what you get else where. In China with a good teacher it is not uncommon to see that teacher every single day for 3 or more hours a day. Here you may be learning from a good teacher, getting quality training and you will be good at the art you train but it may be only 2 or 3 hours a week.

I ran into a guy training Kendo in Beijing and he went to class every single day. Kendo is obviously not Chinese, but my point is the time spent training with a teacher.

But in the US you also have to consider that a teacher from a place like China cannot teach the same way he or she could teach in China so it is not the same training. Frankly most Westerners wouldn’t go to class if they did. My first Chen class many years ago the teacher tried to do a class similar to China. It started out with 40 in the class it ended with 6 of us. He never tried that again, there is no money in it and if you are making a living off of your school you have to consider the money. On the flip side if you do not train students that way (hard) in China you willl have no students.

But there are still issues about what the family lets outside of the family that will not change.

 

[Don Roley]

But in the US you also have to consider that a teacher from a place like China cannot teach the same way he or she could teach in China so it is not the same training. Frankly most Westerners wouldn’t go to class if they did. My first Chen class many years ago the teacher tried to do a class similar to China. It started out with 40 in the class it ended with 6 of us. He never tried that again, there is no money in it and if you are making a living off of your school you have to consider the money. On the flip side if you do not train students that way (hard) in China you willl have no students.

Good point. That is also a matter with some of the stuff I see in Japan. Not so much about attendance (the Japanese miss a lot of class because they do so much overtime at work) but about the level of danger.

I have seen, and trained in things, in Japan that would have an American trial lawyer drool with the oppurtunity to sue the teacher. Yes there is danger, but it is controled and I have never had an injury that kept me away from training from the teacher. I have come to think that training with a sense of danger for your life is important to the transmision of the art. You aren't going to be feeling happy in a real knife ambush. But I can't figure out the best way to convey that in an American context if I were to move back.

It is not a matter of genetics, nor of culture, but rather the fact that there is too many slimy lawyers and silly courts of law in America.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Good point. That is also a matter with some of the stuff I see in Japan. Not so much about attendance (the Japanese miss a lot of class because they do so much overtime at work) but about the level of danger.

I have seen, and trained in things, in Japan that would have an American trial lawyer drool with the oppurtunity to sue the teacher. Yes there is danger, but it is controled and I have never had an injury that kept me away from training from the teacher. I have come to think that training with a sense of danger for your life is important to the transmision of the art. You aren't going to be feeling happy in a real knife ambush. But I can't figure out the best way to convey that in an American context if I were to move back.

It is not a matter of genetics, nor of culture, but rather the fact that there is too many slimy lawyers and silly courts of law in America.

Don,

If I may ask two questions of you:

1) If this same danger was available in the a place outside the original country, then would this not make the training jsut as valuable?

2) If Hatsumi-san and his top 20 or so instructors for some reason all got up and moved to say New Zealand so they have Mount Cook in the back ground, would you not then say that the best training in your art is still with these gentlemen? No matter where they were? Even if they left Lovely Japan?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Absolutely, I never meant to suggest otherwise. Very likely many of the old school CMA guys no longer live in China. And if you are lucky enough to find one that is great.

I am however saying that in China you are going to train with the teacher greater than one time a week for greater than 1 hour at a time and you have to be serious to continue to train with that teacher otherwise you will not be training with that teacher. Also, not all teachers you run into in China are good, just like here you have to find one that is a good.

But when you find a good one it is the amount of quality training that you get by comparison to what you get else where. In China with a good teacher it is not uncommon to see that teacher every single day for 3 or more hours a day. Here you may be learning from a good teacher, getting quality training and you will be good at the art you train but it may be only 2 or 3 hours a week.

I ran into a guy training Kendo in Beijing and he went to class every single day. Kendo is obviously not Chinese, but my point is the time spent training with a teacher.

But in the US you also have to consider that a teacher from a place like China cannot teach the same way he or she could teach in China so it is not the same training. Frankly most Westerners wouldn’t go to class if they did. My first Chen class many years ago the teacher tried to do a class similar to China. It started out with 40 in the class it ended with 6 of us. He never tried that again, there is no money in it and if you are making a living off of your school you have to consider the money. On the flip side if you do not train students that way (hard) in China you willl have no students.

But there are still issues about what the family lets outside of the family that will not change.

While I agree that many people train less often. They may even not train as hard, but there are those that do, and it is not a matter of race or birth location, but of what they put into it.

Yet, there are large portions of the country of orgin who know nothing of their cultural arts. Or if they know something it is the name or of a school somewhere but no real depth.

Yet, from my experience and many here as well, any untrained person from the country of origin knows more than someone who may even have devoted their life to a particular art. So I recognize this is how it is today, but I wish for all to be accepted, for what they know and who they are inside, and not based upon a birth location or color of their skin.

Thank you for allowing me to experss my points here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While I agree that many people train less often. They may even not train as hard, but there are those that do, and it is not a matter of race or birth location, but of what they put into it.

Yet, there are large portions of the country of orgin who know nothing of their cultural arts. Or if they know something it is the name or of a school somewhere but no real depth.

Yet, from my experience and many here as well, any untrained person from the country of origin knows more than someone who may even have devoted their life to a particular art. So I recognize this is how it is today, but I wish for all to be accepted, for what they know and who they are inside, and not based upon a birth location or color of their skin.

Thank you for allowing me to experss my points here.

I know I am not and I do not think Don is suggesting birth; skin color, race or place of origin has anything to do with it. I do not know why you keep going back to that in response. Location of training might however.

As I said in China if you are with a real teacher and you do not train hard or show up you are told to not show up. That does not matter if you are Chinese, Japanese, American or Swedish. That is just the way it is. Also you train longer per week. Also does not matter if you are Chinese, Japanese, American or Swedish. You are also bond to get injured also no difference if you are Chinese, Japanese, American or Swedish. And if you mess up a lot the teacher will hit you also no difference if you are Chinese, Japanese, American, or any thing else for that matter.

I am not making this a racial thing I am just stating the facts of training in countries other than the US.

Also I did not say you could not train hard and end up very good in the US, it jut depends more on the practitioners drive to train by his or her self.