My son's Weapons and Kata

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm enjoying this discussion.

So..

The hand is quicker than the eye.
Action is quicker than reaction.
Ergo- If I punch first, you shouldn't be able to slip that punch. (if it's in your repertoire) but you will many times.

I know it's a straw man argument, but how else was I going to get to use the word ergo?

Actually - the eye runs slightly slower than the turn of the head. Less than ten milliseconds. Interestingly enough, when the head snaps either right or left, the eyes move slightly in the opposite direction in order to keep focus within the center of the field of vision.

Interesting, so the eye does that even when we are trying to look to one side? That's odd, since we don't perceive much during the head turn, itself. I need to go find some studies to read!

 

[Steve]

Okay. So, first, love the video. It's cool to see an 11 year old commit to something he's passionate about. Kudos to him! And I can tell you're proud of him, and deservedly so.

Second, I think it's great that he's at a self defense oriented school, but frankly, my opinion is it would be great if he was at an XMA school, too. Too much is made of that, IMO.

Third, buka, you're a nut.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay. So, first, love the video. It's cool to see an 11 year old commit to something he's passionate about. Kudos to him! And I can tell you're proud of him, and deservedly so.

Second, I think it's great that he's at a self defense oriented school, but frankly, my opinion is it would be great if he was at an XMA school, too. Too much is made of that, IMO.

Third, buka, you're a nut.

I don't mind the XMA schools, for what they are. There's some impressive gymnastic work at those places. But many of them claim to be teaching effective defensive/fighting technique. The XMA stuff has no more relationship to that than does LaserTag.

 

[Steve]

I don't mind the XMA schools, for what they are. There's some impressive gymnastic work at those places. But many of them claim to be teaching effective defensive/fighting technique. The XMA stuff has no more relationship to that than does LaserTag.

My belief is that there is no more effective self defense training for kids than any program that keeps them fit, builds their self esteem and gets them involved in something that instills some foundational life skills. That could be football, baseball, xma, gymnastics, parkour or even the marching band. Even the fit part is negotiable.

The idea that kids are learning effective, defensive fighting techniques is not credible, in my opinion. And any school that purports to do so is very suspicious to me. In fact, I think a sport like XMA is far better for a kid than training at a school that eschews competition, and instead focuses on technique that the kid never actually applies, and puts "respect" on the flier.

But bottom line, if the kid is learning the value of working hard, teamwork, and gets realistic feedback based on actual accomplishment, they're doing just fine.

 

[CB Jones]

Steve,

Thanks.

When it comes to forms we arent that interested in XMA.

But we do go to some XMA tournaments for fighting.

We approach fights as a test of where he is at but also it's a chance to solve new problems experienced from fighters from different styles.

 

[Buka]

Third, buka, you're a nut.

A popular consensus in my circle as well, yes.
Ah, but it is in the eye of the beholder, too. A lot of us here aren't exactly sans a shade of One Flew, my brother.

Et vous?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My belief is that there is no more effective self defense training for kids than any program that keeps them fit, builds their self esteem and gets them involved in something that instills some foundational life skills. That could be football, baseball, xma, gymnastics, parkour or even the marching band. Even the fit part is negotiable.

The idea that kids are learning effective, defensive fighting techniques is not credible, in my opinion. And any school that purports to do so is very suspicious to me. In fact, I think a sport like XMA is far better for a kid than training at a school that eschews competition, and instead focuses on technique that the kid never actually applies, and puts "respect" on the flier.

But bottom line, if the kid is learning the value of working hard, teamwork, and gets realistic feedback based on actual accomplishment, they're doing just fine.

Define "kids" in your usage, Steve. If you're referring to those under 10, I'm entirely with you. Most of them aren't going to learn to fight well, though I think there's room for a few techniques to keep the bullies at bay. Those could be learned within an XMA context. For teens, however, (the folks doing the demo I referred to), there's plenty they can learn of effective fighting technique. No reason they shouldn't do XMA, mind you, just not for fighting.

On a side note, I agree entirely that almost any activity that gets them moving, improves fitness, teaches them to work with others, challenges them, and helps them succeed is a benefit for self-protection.

 

[Steve]

Define "kids" in your usage, Steve. If you're referring to those under 10, I'm entirely with you. Most of them aren't going to learn to fight well, though I think there's room for a few techniques to keep the bullies at bay. Those could be learned within an XMA context. For teens, however, (the folks doing the demo I referred to), there's plenty they can learn of effective fighting technique. No reason they shouldn't do XMA, mind you, just not for fighting.

On a side note, I agree entirely that almost any activity that gets them moving, improves fitness, teaches them to work with others, challenges them, and helps them succeed is a benefit for self-protection.

We are talking about an 11 year old. I'd say kid is 14 or younger.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are talking about an 11 year old. I'd say kid is 14 or younger.

Okay, there's a reasonable grey area there. My usual cut-off is about 13 for effective fighting (I don't actually teach anyone younger that 16). However, someone training in the actual fighting techniques at 10 or 11 is forming a very strong base for when their bodies mature enough to be effective with those skills. The same could be said of 8-year-olds, but I think most of what they get is general physical skill, which would be the same thing they'd get from a sport. And as far as fighting to defend themselves against their peers, I think someone in the 10-14 range can do that.

 

[CB Jones]

From watching my son over the years(started karate at the age of 4), I think they can effectively learn footwork and basic striking fundamentals.

It's a foundation that he will be able to build on as he gets older.

Here he is competing in a couple WKF matches:

 

[Steve]

Just to try and clarify, it's less about technique and really everything to do with the value of realistic, consistent, direct feedback. the most common way to get this is through competition. And for kids' development, I believe it has very little to do with what the activity actually is, and has everything to do with the nature of the participation, the quality of the coaching and the value of realistic feedback that is grounded in performance.

 

[CB Jones]

I am a firm believer that competition makes everyone better.

Nothing teaches you more than a loss or a failure.

 

[Buka]

Nothing teaches you more than a loss or a failure.

Except, maybe, a hard fought win.

 

[Paul_D]

All kata should be based on realism not winning a silly trophy.

Why should it? Not every martial artist trains for realism. Some just enjoy competing, nothing wrong with that. If you want to train for realism great, but don't insist everyone else should.

 

[Buka]

From watching my son over the years(started karate at the age of 4), I think they can effectively learn footwork and basic striking fundamentals.

It's a foundation that he will be able to build on as he gets older.

Here he is competing in a couple WKF matches:

At the two minute something mark - I see your boy understands sidekicking. Pretty darn good for one so young. Nice.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually - the eye runs slightly slower than the turn of the head. Less than ten milliseconds. Interestingly enough, when the head snaps either right or left, the eyes move slightly in the opposite direction in order to keep focus within the center of the field of vision.

Cool piece of information. Do you have a source I could look up to read more on that?

 

[CB Jones]

At the two minute something mark - I see your boy understands sidekicking. Pretty darn good for one so young. Nice.

Thanks.

The side kick is one of his Sensei' favorite techniques. So they do a lot of sidekick work on heavy bags.

 

[CB Jones]

Just an aside from the malay. The turning your head before moving, thing, looks cool, but is a bad habit.

Update: Sensei agrees.

The turning his head was incorrect.

His body should turn as his head does.

He is gonna try and correct that.

Nice catch.

 

[Buka]

Cool piece of information. Do you have a source I could look up to read more on that?

First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)

I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?

 

[Touch Of Death]

First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)

I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?

But the act of changing direction has you covering in a new direction, and it is OK to look in that direction, before stepping there. This is not related to where your opponent is, but to where you step, and isn't your peripheral vision, to what you just dealt with, lessened, if you too quickly snap the head, toward a new direction?