My body is broken and I need advise.

[Bayroum]

Hi guys.

I am new here.

I practiced martial arts my whole life and always loved it since it has always been part of my life and filled in the gap.
However, 5ish years ago, I had my knee cab kicked out and dislocated and broke my elbow due to the fall, since I hit the floor like a wet bag.

Since then I am pretty " traumatized " about martial arts since this was the worst pain imaginable and I was lucky that there wasn't any serious long term damage done on me and I did not need surgery or some prosthetic in my elbow or leg.

However, time passed. I gained weight, I lose my hair, my eye sight gets worse...I am 30, I feel that I get older and I feel how I miss martial arts. I do exercise now to lose weight which I have gained, but I still feel my injuries and don't know what to do.

I want to go back into martial arts, but I imagine that the chance of my knee dislocating or getting kicked out is perhaps higher or there?
I thought about going into boxing as no one is trying to break my legs in this kind of sport, but at the same time its not the same as all the highly technical stuff such as Taekwondo I did before.

I considered Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, but apparently legs and ankles are twisted a lot in these systems as well..... Now I am looking into Wing-Tsun as a " safe " alternative.


Can someone help me out here and give me some advise on how to proceed ?

PS: I am having an appointment at the hospital in 2 days, where I get my knee, elbow, neck scanned due to these crunchy noises so I can see if the doctor gives me green light for martial arts. Yet this would not remove my worry and the actual realistic risk of getting destroyed again.

Maybe someone on here had a similar experience of injuries or knows what I am on about....

Also I want to mention that I have flat feet, which made bare feet systems such as Karate always quite a painful experience, especially due to my high weight. I think I can ignore this...but all the low stanced in TKD and Karate weren't anything I enjoyed too much.


- Bay

 

[HighKick]

You are taking the right approach getting checked out by a physician. Kneecap dislocations have a lot to do with the strength of the musculature around the knee. Of course, weight is a factor. I cannot speak to the flat feet other than to say I know we have people who train with them. Do you work out on mats? This should ease some of the pain.

No one can eliminate your fears of starting back other than you. I strongly suggest you start back at the beginning rank system wherever you train. This will allow for a progressive approach to the training and will not be so hard early on. But the main thing is to just start and not worry or over think the 'what ifs' and things that happened in the past. They happened. Learn from them but do not let them inhibit you going forward. Be smart and realistic about our training. Watch, listen, and learn what you can to do shed weight and build strength.

In a traditional style like TKD or Karate, stance work is a big part of it and is great for building lower body strength, balance, and coordination. Any style will have some of this. Remember, it is a Martial Art. It is not going to be 'easy'.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hi guys.

I am new here.

I practiced martial arts my whole life and always loved it since it has always been part of my life and filled in the gap.
However, 5ish years ago, I had my knee cab kicked out and dislocated and broke my elbow due to the fall, since I hit the floor like a wet bag.

Since then I am pretty " traumatized " about martial arts since this was the worst pain imaginable and I was lucky that there wasn't any serious long term damage done on me and I did not need surgery or some prosthetic in my elbow or leg.

However, time passed. I gained weight, I lose my hair, my eye sight gets worse...I am 30, I feel that I get older and I feel how I miss martial arts. I do exercise now to lose weight which I have gained, but I still feel my injuries and don't know what to do.

I want to go back into martial arts, but I imagine that the chance of my knee dislocating or getting kicked out is perhaps higher or there?
I thought about going into boxing as no one is trying to break my legs in this kind of sport, but at the same time its not the same as all the highly technical stuff such as Taekwondo I did before.

I considered Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, but apparently legs and ankles are twisted a lot in these systems as well..... Now I am looking into Wing-Tsun as a " safe " alternative.


Can someone help me out here and give me some advise on how to proceed ?

PS: I am having an appointment at the hospital in 2 days, where I get my knee, elbow, neck scanned due to these crunchy noises so I can see if the doctor gives me green light for martial arts. Yet this would not remove my worry and the actual realistic risk of getting destroyed again.

Maybe someone on here had a similar experience of injuries or knows what I am on about....

Also I want to mention that I have flat feet, which made bare feet systems such as Karate always quite a painful experience, especially due to my high weight. I think I can ignore this...but all the low stanced in TKD and Karate weren't anything I enjoyed too much.


- Bay

You should definitely see a doctor, and as you are already, I'm not going to address that. They will tell you if you are safe to train, and the risk of re-injury.

That said, with boxing you are correct in that no ones trying to break your legs, but I'd disagree on it not being technical. It's very technical, and you go very in depth to what you do train - it just doesn't have the breadth of TKD or karate styles. I'm amazed by all the little things the boxing trainers I know think about for something as simple as a jab cross combo though. One thing to watch out for is that you do put a lot of weight on your feet when boxing - certain punches (and boxing styles) will have you dig your foot into the ground, which may or may not cause damage - that's a question for your doctor.

Regarding wing chun, from my limited understanding of it I'd agree it's a safer option, though I have never trained it. Someone who has can hopefully tell you more about it.

 

[Bayroum]

You should definitely see a doctor, and as you are already, I'm not going to address that. They will tell you if you are safe to train, and the risk of re-injury.

That said, with boxing you are correct in that no ones trying to break your legs, but I'd disagree on it not being technical. It's very technical, and you go very in depth to what you do train - it just doesn't have the breadth of TKD or karate styles. I'm amazed by all the little things the boxing trainers I know think about for something as simple as a jab cross combo though. One thing to watch out for is that you do put a lot of weight on your feet when boxing - certain punches (and boxing styles) will have you dig your foot into the ground, which may or may not cause damage - that's a question for your doctor.

Regarding wing chun, from my limited understanding of it I'd agree it's a safer option, though I have never trained it. Someone who has can hopefully tell you more about it.

Hi,

I was not trying to indicate that boxing is not technical, I know it is. I did it in the past. But the variety of techniques is not as " large " as in Karate for example, since you are not using arm bars, legs, knees, elbows and so on. I personally love boxing though.

Thank you for your input. I guess about WT I just have to give it a try.

You are taking the right approach getting checked out by a physician. Kneecap dislocations have a lot to do with the strength of the musculature around the knee. Of course, weight is a factor. I cannot speak to the flat feet other than to say I know we have people who train with them. Do you work out on mats? This should ease some of the pain.

No one can eliminate your fears of starting back other than you. I strongly suggest you start back at the beginning rank system wherever you train. This will allow for a progressive approach to the training and will not be so hard early on. But the main thing is to just start and not worry or over think the 'what ifs' and things that happened in the past. They happened. Learn from them but do not let them inhibit you going forward. Be smart and realistic about our training. Watch, listen, and learn what you can to do shed weight and build strength.

In a traditional style like TKD or Karate, stance work is a big part of it and is great for building lower body strength, balance, and coordination. Any style will have some of this. Remember, it is a Martial Art. It is not going to be 'easy'.

Thanks for the positive words!

My main goal is to somehow get rid off the 40 kg I weight too much, which is quite a lot. It bothered me a long time.
I am not expecting the doc to say too much since after my accident, I was checked out by docs anyway and there was no cartiladge or join damage. I am hoping for him to prescribe me a therapy so strengthen my muscles and such before I hop back into the world of martial arts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My main goal is to somehow get rid off the 40 kg I weight too much, which is quite a lot. It bothered me a long time.
I am not expecting the doc to say too much since after my accident, I was checked out by docs anyway and there was no cartiladge or join damage. I am hoping for him to prescribe me a therapy so strengthen my muscles and such before I hop back into the world of martial arts.

Ask him about yoga. That does a pretty good job of strengthening the muscles you need for martial arts, so long as there isn't anything about your injury suggesting it's bad.

 

[Holmejr]

I’m with the “see DR and verify general health camp.”
Assuming you get the medical go ahead, it becomes harder to get rid of excess weight as we get older. It takes dietary DISCIPLINE along with smart exercise. Your are only 30 years old! You simply have to start and get into the habit of feeling better about you! I’m totally biased, but If there is a good combative Filipino Martial Arts school near you I would seriously check it out. Training is 70% or so upper body, with great footwork, balance and fluidity. Kicks are low, typically thigh and lower. Right up your alley!

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, CA

 

[Bayroum]

I’m with the “see DR and verify general health camp.”
Assuming you get the medical go ahead, it becomes harder to get rid of excess weight as we get older. It takes dietary DISCIPLINE along with smart exercise. Your are only 30 years old! You simply have to start and get into the habit of feeling better about you! I’m totally biased, but If there is a good combative Filipino Martial Arts school near you I would seriously check it out. Training is 70% or so upper body, with great footwork, balance and fluidity. Kicks are low, typically thigh and lower. Right up your alley!

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, CA

Would love to. But Germany is super limited when it comes to choice of martial arts. Unless you live in a major city, even there its quite limited in my opinion.

9 out of 10 times, you see kickboxing, karate, judo and if you are lucky, some boxing club, which also has become rare due to most people being too scared to do anything involving contact.

Even Karate is usually limited to " Shotokan Karate " which the way it is practiced over here, I really don't like.

I am moving countries soon though, so there will be more option.

What is your take on Krav-Maga by the way ?

 

[MetalBoar]

If it's the knee on your dominant side this might not be the best idea, depending on how sound your knee is and what sorts of forces and movements put undo stress on it, but you might consider sport fencing. Nobody is going to kick your knee out, it's a lot of fun, it will definitely keep you active and help lose the weight and I'd think it might be available in Germany. If you decide later that you want to pursue more purely combative arts there can be a lot of skill transfer from fencing to HEMA and other weapon arts and it will definitely help you develop speed and timing that are useful for pretty much any martial art.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If it's the knee on your dominant side this might not be the best idea, depending on how sound your knee is and what sorts of forces and movements put undo stress on it, but you might consider sport fencing. Nobody is going to kick your knee out, it's a lot of fun, it will definitely keep you active and help lose the weight and I'd think it might be available in Germany. If you decide later that you want to pursue more purely combative arts there can be a lot of skill transfer from fencing to HEMA and other weapon arts and it will definitely help you develop speed and timing that are useful for pretty much any martial art.

Depends a lot on where he trains. A lot of people train sport fencing in a way that's bad on the front knee, mainly in how they lunge. If you learn to lunge properly, it shouldn't be as big of an issue (with the caveat obviously that we don't know how his knee is or what a doctor would suggest).
For reference, this is a bad lunge - not the worst I've seen, but you can see how her knee goes over her toes. My understanding is that causes extra stress on the knee, which builds up over time (I haven't paid attention to the science for this in years)

Vs. these are better lunges

Both people are in form from a lunge, and it's clear they didn't stomp their foot down, and as a result the toes are out in front of the knees.
Something you'll notice is that in drawn pictures or beginner lectures, you'll see a lot of the 'wrong' way, but if you look at any pictures of olympic fencers lunging/you'll pretty much unanimously see the bottom picture.

 

[Holmejr]

KM? It really depends on you. KM is fine and many folks enjoy it. On a personal level I appreciate the progression of a traditional MA. Whether you can physically do KM is your bag.

 

[MetalBoar]

Depends a lot on where he trains. A lot of people train sport fencing in a way that's bad on the front knee, mainly in how they lunge. If you learn to lunge properly, it shouldn't be as big of an issue (with the caveat obviously that we don't know how his knee is or what a doctor would suggest).
For reference, this is a bad lunge - not the worst I've seen, but you can see how her knee goes over her toes. My understanding is that causes extra stress on the knee, which builds up over time (I haven't paid attention to the science for this in years)

Vs. these are better lunges

Both people are in form from a lunge, and it's clear they didn't stomp their foot down, and as a result the toes are out in front of the knees.
Something you'll notice is that in drawn pictures or beginner lectures, you'll see a lot of the 'wrong' way, but if you look at any pictures of olympic fencers lunging/you'll pretty much unanimously see the bottom picture.

Yeah, I agree that it depends on which knee, how badly (and in what way) it's injured. I think that most forms of vigorous physical activity can put unfortunate wear and tear on the body if done incorrectly. Fencing can be done with a very shallow/tall stance and short lunges and then progress to more and more athletic movements as the fencer's physical capabilities and skills improve. Like a lot of things, it requires a competent coach and a student who's paying attention and has some patience.

In my experience, the quality of fencing instruction, at a real fencing school, is usually superior to that found in yoga, and yet nobody ever seems to express concerns about yoga damaging your body (though I know people who have been injured by yoga). Similarly, my last Tai Chi instructor spent a lot of time talking about how many Tai Chi instructors taught things in a way that was potentially damaging to the knees, but again, nobody seems to worry about Tai Chi - 90 year old's do that! It must be safe! In my very limited experience with Wing Chun, the sheep shearing stance made my knees hurt, I don't know if it would have been damaging long term or not. Whether that was a matter of improper instruction, weak or imbalanced musculature at the time, some problem with my genetics, or a problem inherent to the stance, I can't say.

Looking at that top picture, while the fencer is leaning too far out over their foot, I'd be more concerned with the fact that the lead foot appears to be pointed off to the fencer's left, rather than straight ahead, which is going to put shearing force across the joint, rather than allowing it to bend in response to the stress. Whether extending the knee past the foot is particularly bad for the joint or not, it's bad fencing. The fencer is attempting to lunge more deeply (or probably, more accurately, farther) than their current strength and/or flexibility levels, allow. A reasonable coach should be pointing this out and it's easy to correct and avoid with a little bit of awareness.

It sounded like the OP's biggest concerns (assuming the doctors give a clean bill of health) might be related to being injured by an opponent during sparring and with fencing that's about as small a worry as you're going to get in sports of any kind. I'd be more worried about someone getting drunk and hitting me with a pool cue in competitive billiards than a fellow fencer attacking me in a dangerous fashion!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In my experience, the quality of fencing instruction, at a real fencing school, is usually superior to that found in yoga, and yet nobody ever seems to express concerns about yoga damaging your body (though I know people who have been injured by yoga). Similarly, my last Tai Chi instructor spent a lot of time talking about how many Tai Chi instructors taught things in a way that was potentially damaging to the knees, but again, nobody seems to worry about Tai Chi - 90 year old's do that! It must be safe! In my very limited experience with Wing Chun, the sheep shearing stance made my knees hurt, I don't know if it would have been damaging long term or not. Whether that was a matter of improper instruction, weak or imbalanced musculature at the time, some problem with my genetics, or a problem inherent to the stance, I can't say.

I think our experiences are a bit different here. I've not heard many people complain about the quality of fencing instruction, or the dangers, outside of fencers themselves. I've heard similar things from people that train in whatever CMA they practice, and my old college roommate was insistent that no one should do yoga without guidance from a [insert indian word for master here], and his hometown would be appalled at how much it's spread.

I didn't comment on wing chun or yoga's risks, mostly because I am not aware of what they are, and most beginner yoga seems to me to be fairly simple and safe.

Looking at that top picture, while the fencer is leaning too far out over their foot, I'd be more concerned with the fact that the lead foot appears to be pointed off to the fencer's left, rather than straight ahead, which is going to put shearing force across the joint, rather than allowing it to bend in response to the stress. Whether extending the knee past the foot is particularly bad for the joint or not, it's bad fencing. The fencer is attempting to lunge more deeply (or probably, more accurately, farther) than their current strength and/or flexibility levels, allow. A reasonable coach should be pointing this out and it's easy to correct and avoid with a little bit of awareness.

Oh definitely. I'm also not a fan of how her shoulder is set - it's tough to tell from the picture, but it looks like she is extending in a way that will cause shoulder damage if she continues as well. I just stuck with one specific issue to avoid getting bogged down/away from my point. A coach should point all of these out, but I've seen enough 'advanced' fencers with these fundamental issues that it's a concern to me.

It sounded like the OP's biggest concerns (assuming the doctors give a clean bill of health) might be related to being injured by an opponent during sparring and with fencing that's about as small a worry as you're going to get in sports of any kind. I'd be more worried about someone getting drunk and hitting me with a pool cue in competitive billiards than a fellow fencer attacking me in a dangerous fashion!

I'd agree with that. But while that might be his concern, when it comes to knee injuries I always want people to be aware/thinking of how they can injure themselves through chronic use. Chronic use injuries seem (in my non-professional experience) to be more common than accident-based injuries. You're definitely more experienced in that then me though, so if you say I'm wrong, I'll believe you.

 

[mograph]

If you go on Instagram and search for "mobility," you'll find a lot of videos of fit young people doing exercises that should build up the muscles around your knee and help with flexibility. Naturally, we need to look for an entry into that world, because we're both probably kind of stiff and can't do what they can do.

I sympathize on the weight. I gained a fair bit during lockdown, and it messed me up in a way that was unexpected. Sleep apnea, fatty liver ... blah. So I'm definitely motivated to get the rest of it off, and keep it off. Who needs those extra problems?

 

[Bayroum]

Depends a lot on where he trains. A lot of people train sport fencing in a way that's bad on the front knee, mainly in how they lunge. If you learn to lunge properly, it shouldn't be as big of an issue (with the caveat obviously that we don't know how his knee is or what a doctor would suggest).
For reference, this is a bad lunge - not the worst I've seen, but you can see how her knee goes over her toes. My understanding is that causes extra stress on the knee, which builds up over time (I haven't paid attention to the science for this in years)

Vs. these are better lunges

Both people are in form from a lunge, and it's clear they didn't stomp their foot down, and as a result the toes are out in front of the knees.
Something you'll notice is that in drawn pictures or beginner lectures, you'll see a lot of the 'wrong' way, but if you look at any pictures of olympic fencers lunging/you'll pretty much unanimously see the bottom picture.

I weigh 120 kg on 188. I am obese right now and fencing is certainly not the type of sport I would succeed in right now. lol. Plus it would be truly bad for my knees, with or without injuries.

Maybe in future.

If you go on Instagram and search for "mobility," you'll find a lot of videos of fit young people doing exercises that should build up the muscles around your knee and help with flexibility. Naturally, we need to look for an entry into that world, because we're both probably kind of stiff and can't do what they can do.

I sympathize on the weight. I gained a fair bit during lockdown, and it messed me up in a way that was unexpected. Sleep apnea, fatty liver ... blah. So I'm definitely motivated to get the rest of it off, and keep it off. Who needs those extra problems?

I feel you bro. When I lay down at night, it feels like someone is sitting on my body sometimes. I can't even bend down to tie my shoes without almost throwing up. It really sucks.

This is not me !

But hey, I made a first good step today. I only ate a salad and a slice of bread for dinner. Tomorrow I am going for a big old hike through the woods, at least 4 km of walking fast non-stop. My wife managed to lose like 30 or 40 kg within 12 months. I am in good hands.

 

[Bayroum]

If it's the knee on your dominant side this might not be the best idea, depending on how sound your knee is and what sorts of forces and movements put undo stress on it, but you might consider sport fencing. Nobody is going to kick your knee out, it's a lot of fun, it will definitely keep you active and help lose the weight and I'd think it might be available in Germany. If you decide later that you want to pursue more purely combative arts there can be a lot of skill transfer from fencing to HEMA and other weapon arts and it will definitely help you develop speed and timing that are useful for pretty much any martial art.

Tbh I was looking into pankration. But this seems to be somewhat rare.

 

[mograph]

But hey, I made a first good step today. I only ate a salad and a slice of bread for dinner. Tomorrow I am going for a big old hike through the woods, at least 4 km of walking fast non-stop. My wife managed to lose like 30 or 40 kg within 12 months. I am in good hands.

Well-done!

 

[JowGaWolf]

.but all the low stanced in TKD and Karate weren't anything I enjoyed too much.

Depending on what your doctor says, this is the one activity that may be healthy for you in terms of reconditioning your knee.

 

[Bayroum]

Depending on what your doctor says, this is the one activity that may be healthy for you in terms of reconditioning your knee.

It is healthy because I have no damage. I found a scan from 2020 of my knee and a report. It states my ligaments and tissue is all in good shape.

But still, uncomfortable. I say if I would train it for a longer period of time again, I would be fine. But last time I tried with overweight, it was super hard on my joints and legs. Try being in that stance at my weight not having trained in ages.

I must lose weight otherwise martial arts is not doable for me in a safe and enjoyable manner.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is healthy because I have no damage. I found a scan from 2020 of my knee and a report. It states my ligaments and tissue is all in good shape.

But still, uncomfortable. I say if I would train it for a longer period of time again, I would be fine. But last time I tried with overweight, it was super hard on my joints and legs. Try being in that stance at my weight not having trained in ages.

I must lose weight otherwise martial arts is not doable for me in a safe and enjoyable manner.

Plenty of overweight people train. Plenty of people stop being overweight because they started training. And a good school will adapt.

If you have to be in a low horse stance, for instance, no one's expecting a newcomer (even if you've got experience), who is out of shape, to hold a good horse stance. They'll expect you to hold it a bit beyond struggling, probably closer to 45 degrees than 90, with going in and out of it. Same for most other stuff.

You can wait until you lose weight, which is fine, but you can also use martial arts to help that out.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If your knee and elbow are currently healthy, then the only thing you need to really be concerned about is the fact that you are out of shape and will need to build your fitness back up progressively rather than diving immediately into a workout aimed at competitive fighters.

Fortunately most schools that cater to hobbyists are used to taking out-of-shape beginners and building them up gradually. Just visit any schools you are interested in before signing up to observe a class, talk to the instructor, and make sure that they are going to work with you at the level you are at rather than operating in boot camp drill sergeant mode.

Honestly, you should be fine in most martial arts assuming the instructor works with the mindset of building you up progressively. The exceptions might be systems which focus on extreme athleticism like capoeira or modern wushu or schools which are primarily oriented towards competitive athletes.

If you're still phobic about the possibility of injury, you might want to look for an instructor who focuses on providing detailed technical feedback oriented towards keeping your body as safe and healthy as possible. Those exist in most arts, but you might have to look around and ask questions.

Bear in mind that there is always some degree of risk of injury involved in the martial arts. I'm 59 years old and have been training for 42 years. During that time I've had probably 3 broken bones, a couple of dislocations, some mild concussions, some muscle strains, some cuts, and countless bumps and bruises. Despite that, my body is still in much better shape than I would have been if I had spent those decades just sitting around reading and playing video games. I've used those injuries as lessons in how to use my body more correctly and to help me teach my students how to avoid injury. (My pain tolerance is also much higher - when I do get injured, my response is not "oh my god, it hurts!", but "man, I hope this doesn't make me miss out on training.")