My Analysis of (some) Defendu techniques.

[Deleted member 39746]

So, im going to hopefully write a thread on the defendu techniques listed in various manuals and sources etc. So im going to try and give a description of the technique, its purpose, its intended targets, its general effect, how its done and variations (if applicable) and any notes.


so starting with the first two i remember and the easiest two hand strikes.




Chin jab
Description: An open palm strike to the chin with the bottom of the palm. Fingers are used to gouge at the eyes when doing a upwards motion from a bent arm
Use: to strike the jaw/nose and to gouge the eyes.
Effect: It should cause Jaw/mouth damage, perhaps damage to the neck and a concussion.
Variants: there is not much difference in how its performed, the only other target to the jaw is the nose which would have reduced injury potential.
Notes:


Knife hand
Description: All fingers kept in a straight line and together with the thumb extended at a 90 degree angle.
Use: Only striking from a bent arm in a 90 degree angle and only outwards with the hand downwards. targets include but are not limited to: the Bicep, Neck, Spine, Kidneys, Fore arm, wrist, hand, collar bone and shoulder area
Effect: Various from broken/fractured bones, to damaged ligaments etc.
Variants: Only varients i see of the strike is the inclusion of a inwards strike using the thumb side as a striking surface and the thumb being kept alongside the fingers not extended outwards in a 90 degree angle. also some striking areas are different.
Notes:




So, these are my first two statements of the first two moves in get tough, how did i do? I am going to work through all the printed moves in Defendu eventually, hopefully keeping the same structure along the way. this doesnt include everything but is a brief overview of them.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Rat ,
before you make a long list of stuff that no one really cares about. what is the purpose of the thread?
i could and have made a list of the entire Uechi- ryu curriculum.

shoken, hiraken, bushiken, shuto, palm and hammer (i forget the japanese for those) the effect is to damage the human body.
but i fail to see the point. did my list help educate you at all? probably not. so help me out and explain why you think your thread is conversation worthy.

 

[Tez3]

i could and have made a list of the entire Uechi- ryu curriculum.

I'll post up the Wado Ryu curriculum then. I'm sure someone can post up Shotokan and other karate styles. We can all go 'yeah and?'

Our palm hand strike is Shoteiuchi, hammer is Tettsuiuchi. We also have a vertical knife hand ( (Tete shuto uke), Shuto Tate Mawashi uchi is knife hand downwards, Shuto Yoko Mawashi Ushi can be done inwards and outwards.

Variants: Only varients i see of the strike is the inclusion of a inwards strike using the thumb side as a striking surface and the thumb being kept alongside the fingers not extended outwards in a 90 degree angle. also some striking areas are different.
:

This is a ridge hand strike( Haito uchi)

 

[Deleted member 39746]

@Rat ,
before you make a long list of stuff that no one really cares about. what is the purpose of the thread?
i could and have made a list of the entire Uechi- ryu curriculum.

shoken, hiraken, bushiken, shuto, palm and hammer (i forget the japanese for those) the effect is to damage the human body.
but i fail to see the point. did my list help educate you at all? probably not. so help me out and explain why you think your thread is conversation worthy.

To spread the wonders of Defendu. That and i saw some people ask some questions about some of the moves and what their purpose/effect is. Or not know what it is. (should probbly have put that in there) And also to see if i got the application/effect right.

More of a impulse post, it goes where it goes, it could lead to in depth discussion on things or not.

Doesn't hurt to make it after all. if you dont find it conversation worthy/dont want to take part dont take part. I dont really need much of a reason other than i find it intresting and want to share it with other people who might/get input on my perspective of it.

(i wouldn't mind the full circulem of your style if i was looking into how it as taught/what moves come at what levels etc)

This is a ridge hand strike( Haito uchi)

the strike in the system (in the manuals anyway) is no ridge hands. Its just standards knife hands using the pinky side. But i did describe ridge hands in there as alternate which is used elsewhere. I dont know why that is, probably a safety thing given you could break your thumb/index finger easier and you need that for shooting.

Or maybe, just thought of this, a primitive inside 90 and outside 90 concept. (will be googling for information as to why he opted for this version of the knife hand over the others)

 

[hoshin1600]

Doesn't hurt to make it after all. if you dont find it conversation worthy/dont want to take part dont take part.

its not that i dont want to take part, it just that without a context, i wouldnt know how.

 

[hoshin1600]

Knife hand
Description: All fingers kept in a straight line and together with the thumb extended at a 90 degree angle.
Use: Only striking from a bent arm in a 90 degree angle and only outwards with the hand downwards. targets include but are not limited to: the Bicep, Neck, Spine, Kidneys, Fore arm, wrist, hand, collar bone and shoulder area

my thoughts on Defendu is that its dated. kinda like the old FBI self defense training films that show agents going around "karate chopping" people in the neck and knocking them unconscious.
martial arts has evolved so much farther over the years. for a combatives system a knife hand is one of the worst possible options for many of the target areas you listed. a shuto works for traditional martial arts because they would spend hours and hours, year after year pounding on a makiwara to strengthen and condition the hand for striking. people who train and use combatives are not going to have the ability to use it with the same outcome. for me the knife hand is a specialty weapon. my only target is the neck. all other targets are better suited for the hammer fist. i wouldnt even add it to my curriculum except that the movement of the head has a tendency to close the target and the knife hand fits well into the gap where the hammer fist will not.

 

[frank raud]

My thoughts on Defendu is it basically stopped being taught by the mid 30's. It is only shown in two(possibly 3) manuals, Scientific Self Defense and Defendu ( possibly the 1915 SMP manual). Fairbairn's manuals that people are more familiar with such as Get Tough! and All-in Fighting show a stripped own version, eliminating most of the techniques from Defendu, as the police restraint and capture sections are basically eliminated. As someone who has practiced WWII combatives for roughly 20 years, was in regular contact with Fairbairn's historian (Peter Robins) until his passing, I hope I have some idea of what I'm talking about.

If you are working from Get Tough!, it is not Defendu, by that time Fairbairn was referring to his system as Gutterfighting, or the Fairbairn System, as it is described on the back of the dustjacket of Get Tough!

 

[frank raud]

Knife hand
Description: All fingers kept in a straight line and together with the thumb extended at a 90 degree angle.

the strike in the system (in the manuals anyway) is no ridge hands. Its just standards knife hands using the pinky side.

The knife hand strike in most karate systems will not have the thumb extended, but tucked in. Very few people would describe the version in Get Tough! as a standard knife hand.

 

[pdg]

The thread title states "my analysis".

I see no analysis taking place, all you appear to have done is list a couple of techniques.

 

[hoshin1600]

@frank raud
am i correct in thinking that there is a new generation trying to bring Defendu back to life? i seem to remember a YouTube video of someone updating the system.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The thread title states "my analysis".

I see no analysis taking place, all you appear to have done is list a couple of techniques.

Quiet you, its my Magnum opus in construction.

@frank raud
am i correct in thinking that there is a new generation trying to bring Defendu back to life? i seem to remember a YouTube video of someone updating the system.

I believe there are some places around doing it, i know of one which teaches american (WW2) combatives. It seems to be defendu based from people who taught it during WW2. so its at least very minor.

 

[frank raud]

@frank raud
am i correct in thinking that there is a new generation trying to bring Defendu back to life? i seem to remember a YouTube video of someone updating the system.

Could be. Most times the name is improperly applied. Defendu was the police restraining art that Fairbairn taught in Shanghai, Gutterfighting, the Fairbairn system, WWII Combatives would be more appropriate for something based on the WWII era syllabus. Don't get me started on the Defendo systems that claim Fairbairn lineage.

 

[JR 137]

palm and hammer (i forget the japanese for those) the effect is to damage the human body.

Palm is sho-te (spelling?)
Hammer fist is tetsui

 

[jobo]

So, im going to hopefully write a thread on the defendu techniques listed in various manuals and sources etc. So im going to try and give a description of the technique, its purpose, its intended targets, its general effect, how its done and variations (if applicable) and any notes.


so starting with the first two i remember and the easiest two hand strikes.




Chin jab
Description: An open palm strike to the chin with the bottom of the palm. Fingers are used to gouge at the eyes when doing a upwards motion from a bent arm
Use: to strike the jaw/nose and to gouge the eyes.
Effect: It should cause Jaw/mouth damage, perhaps damage to the neck and a concussion.
Variants: there is not much difference in how its performed, the only other target to the jaw is the nose which would have reduced injury potential.
Notes:


Knife hand
Description: All fingers kept in a straight line and together with the thumb extended at a 90 degree angle.
Use: Only striking from a bent arm in a 90 degree angle and only outwards with the hand downwards. targets include but are not limited to: the Bicep, Neck, Spine, Kidneys, Fore arm, wrist, hand, collar bone and shoulder area
Effect: Various from broken/fractured bones, to damaged ligaments etc.
Variants: Only varients i see of the strike is the inclusion of a inwards strike using the thumb side as a striking surface and the thumb being kept alongside the fingers not extended outwards in a 90 degree angle. also some striking areas are different.
Notes:




So, these are my first two statements of the first two moves in get tough, how did i do? I am going to work through all the printed moves in Defendu eventually, hopefully keeping the same structure along the way. this doesnt include everything but is a brief overview of them.

Carry on I'm interested, people seem to have a down on defendu for no logical reason, it's seems a perfectly good system, that stands up well against any tma or " modern self defence system.

 

[jobo]

my thoughts on Defendu is that its dated. kinda like the old FBI self defense training films that show agents going around "karate chopping" people in the neck and knocking them unconscious.
martial arts has evolved so much farther over the years. for a combatives system a knife hand is one of the worst possible options for many of the target areas you listed. a shuto works for traditional martial arts because they would spend hours and hours, year after year pounding on a makiwara to strengthen and condition the hand for striking. people who train and use combatives are not going to have the ability to use it with the same outcome. for me the knife hand is a specialty weapon. my only target is the neck. all other targets are better suited for the hammer fist. i wouldnt even add it to my curriculum except that the movement of the head has a tendency to close the target and the knife hand fits well into the gap where the hammer fist will not.

How is it more dates than a tma ? BoDy mechanics haven't changed a jot in several thousand years !

 

[skribs]

Quiet you, its my Magnum opus in construction.




I believe there are some places around doing it, i know of one which teaches american (WW2) combatives. It seems to be defendu based from people who taught it during WW2. so its at least very minor.

So do what I do. Open up a word document. Write your post. When your post is ready, copy+paste into the forum. It's what I've been doing on forums when writing guides of my own probably longer than you've been alive.

Carry on I'm interested, people seem to have a down on defendu for no logical reason, it's seems a perfectly good system, that stands up well against any tma or " modern self defence system.

I think people are likely apprehensive because this is a similar post to the "Diffrent Punches" thread, in which the OP has admitted to having very little actual training in martial arts.

 

[jobo]

So do what I do. Open up a word document. Write your post. When your post is ready, copy+paste into the forum. It's what I've been doing on forums when writing guides of my own probably longer than you've been alive.



I think people are likely apprehensive because this is a similar post to the "Diffrent Punches" thread, in which the OP has admitted to having very little actual training in martial arts.

It's still an interesting topic though,

 

[skribs]

Chin jab
Description: An open palm strike to the chin with the bottom of the palm. Fingers are used to gouge at the eyes when doing a upwards motion from a bent arm
Use: to strike the jaw/nose and to gouge the eyes.
Effect: It should cause Jaw/mouth damage, perhaps damage to the neck and a concussion.
Variants: there is not much difference in how its performed, the only other target to the jaw is the nose which would have reduced injury potential.
Notes:

A palm strike to the chin can be done in various ways. You can have your fingers slightly curved or almost bent into a knuckle-fist. I prefer slightly curved, others prefer the almost-fist. You can also strike with the fingers up to aim for the mouth or nose, or you can have your fingers out and aim for the jaw.

A palm strike can also be used with a cupped hand to box the ears, or if you have a wristlock you can use a palm strike just above the elbow to hyperextend the elbow. A palm strike to the chest or shoulder can be combined with a leg sweep to perform a take-down. With a good wristlock opening up the ribs you can palm-strike to the ribs for devastating effect.

Alternatively, if you're an NCIS Special Agent in Charge, and one of your subordinates is a bumbling idiot, you can palm strike them on the back of the head whenever they act like a dolt.

Knife hand

Description: All fingers kept in a straight line and together with the thumb extended at a 90 degree angle.
Use: Only striking from a bent arm in a 90 degree angle and only outwards with the hand downwards. targets include but are not limited to: the Bicep, Neck, Spine, Kidneys, Fore arm, wrist, hand, collar bone and shoulder area
Effect: Various from broken/fractured bones, to damaged ligaments etc.
Variants: Only varients i see of the strike is the inclusion of a inwards strike using the thumb side as a striking surface and the thumb being kept alongside the fingers not extended outwards in a 90 degree angle. also some striking areas are different.
Notes:

NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER do a knife-hand strike with your thumb extended. Unless of course you want to break your thumb. The ONLY time your thumb should be extended from your hand is if you are going to grab something, i.e. a wrist lock, choke, etc. Otherwise, whether you're doing a knife-hand strike, a palm strike, a punch, or any other type of strike, keep your thumb tucked in!

There are so many different ways I've seen a knife-hand strike done.

• You have the inward strike which is a horizontal strike starting from the ear and snaps inside. (see the last couple steps of the Kukkiwon Taekwondo form Koryo Hyung), done with your hand up.
• You have the outward chop which it seems the OP described.
• You have the classic knock-out blow from 60s and 70s TV shows (watch Get Smart! or Star Trek: TOS, for example) which is a diagonal downward strike to the collarbone. This can be outward or inward.
  
• You have ridge-hand strikes, which use the thumb-side of the hand.
• You can also do one straight down. This is useful if you have the other guy bent over in a wristlock to chop to the neck.
• Knife-hand strikes and ridge-hand strikes can be done lower to target the groin or inner thigh.
• Some people like to combine knife-hand strike and block into the same technique (I personally separate them in my mind), if you think that way it really opens it up

So, these are my first two statements of the first two moves in get tough, how did i do? I am going to work through all the printed moves in Defendu eventually, hopefully keeping the same structure along the way. this doesnt include everything but is a brief overview of them.

Go watch the original Karate Kid. Look how well Daniel learned Karate from a book vs. how he learned it from Mr. Miagi. I realize it's a movie, but it's true. You aren't going to learn martial arts from a book, or from a list of techniques posted on an internet forum.

Honestly, I see where you're coming from. Writing things out and listing them is how I think, too. In fact, when I get a new game (board game or video game) the first thing I do is find a database of the game and start doing excel sheets to figure out how to optimize my playthrough. That's more fun than the game itself to me.

The problem is, you're coming from a place of complete inexperience. If you go to classes, you will:

• Learn the proper way to do techniques safely (which was a concern in your other thread)
• Learn variations of the technique that don't show up in the manuals
• Learn applications of the technique that don't show up in the manuals
• Learn how to aim and time the technique (something you can't do without a partner)
• Get feedback from the instructor on what to improve
• Get experience from sparring
• Get the opportunity to experiment with the technique with another person
• Learn the correct terminology to use

I see where you're coming from. But there's a lot more to the techniques than what you're posting. It'll take a few years to get to the point where you really get to see them open up this way, but there are tons of ways of doing anything, and it's almost impossible to put them all into a manual.

Although one day I'd like to try.

 

[jobo]

A palm strike to the chin can be done in various ways. You can have your fingers slightly curved or almost bent into a knuckle-fist. I prefer slightly curved, others prefer the almost-fist. You can also strike with the fingers up to aim for the mouth or nose, or you can have your fingers out and aim for the jaw.

A palm strike can also be used with a cupped hand to box the ears, or if you have a wristlock you can use a palm strike just above the elbow to hyperextend the elbow. A palm strike to the chest or shoulder can be combined with a leg sweep to perform a take-down. With a good wristlock opening up the ribs you can palm-strike to the ribs for devastating effect.

Alternatively, if you're an NCIS Special Agent in Charge, and one of your subordinates is a bumbling idiot, you can palm strike them on the back of the head whenever they act like a dolt.



NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER do a knife-hand strike with your thumb extended. Unless of course you want to break your thumb. The ONLY time your thumb should be extended from your hand is if you are going to grab something, i.e. a wrist lock, choke, etc. Otherwise, whether you're doing a knife-hand strike, a palm strike, a punch, or any other type of strike, keep your thumb tucked in!

There are so many different ways I've seen a knife-hand strike done.

• You have the inward strike which is a horizontal strike starting from the ear and snaps inside. (see the last couple steps of the Kukkiwon Taekwondo form Koryo Hyung), done with your hand up.
• You have the outward chop which it seems the OP described.
• You have the classic knock-out blow from 60s and 70s TV shows (watch Get Smart! or Star Trek: TOS, for example) which is a diagonal downward strike to the collarbone. This can be outward or inward.
  
• You have ridge-hand strikes, which use the thumb-side of the hand.
• You can also do one straight down. This is useful if you have the other guy bent over in a wristlock to chop to the neck.
• Knife-hand strikes and ridge-hand strikes can be done lower to target the groin or inner thigh.
• Some people like to combine knife-hand strike and block into the same technique (I personally separate them in my mind), if you think that way it really opens it up

Go watch the original Karate Kid. Look how well Daniel learned Karate from a book vs. how he learned it from Mr. Miagi. I realize it's a movie, but it's true. You aren't going to learn martial arts from a book, or from a list of techniques posted on an internet forum.

Honestly, I see where you're coming from. Writing things out and listing them is how I think, too. In fact, when I get a new game (board game or video game) the first thing I do is find a database of the game and start doing excel sheets to figure out how to optimize my playthrough. That's more fun than the game itself to me.

The problem is, you're coming from a place of complete inexperience. If you go to classes, you will:

• Learn the proper way to do techniques safely (which was a concern in your other thread)
• Learn variations of the technique that don't show up in the manuals
• Learn applications of the technique that don't show up in the manuals
• Learn how to aim and time the technique (something you can't do without a partner)
• Get feedback from the instructor on what to improve
• Get experience from sparring
• Get the opportunity to experiment with the technique with another person
• Learn the correct terminology to use

I see where you're coming from. But there's a lot more to the techniques than what you're posting. It'll take a few years to get to the point where you really get to see them open up this way, but there are tons of ways of doing anything, and it's almost impossible to put them all into a manual.

Although one day I'd like to try.

I've never seen the point of trying to maul il them with your fingers in a palm strike, if you do it properly under their chin, it snaps their head back and they fall over, if they don't don't then hit them with something else, don't try and scratch their face like a girl plus don't put your finger near their mouth for obvious reasons

 

[skribs]

I've never seen the point of trying to maul il them with your fingers in a palm strike, if you do it properly under their chin, it snaps their head back and they fall over, if they don't don't then hit them with something else, don't try and scratch their face like a girl plus don't put your finger near their mouth for obvious reasons

I can understand the idea behind an eye gouge, but I agree I wouldn't do it with a palm strike. If anything, you're more likely to break your fingers that way. When I said "strike the mouth" I meant to hit the mouth and nose area with the palm and retract right away, not to leave your hand near their mouth.

Although we do train sometimes to keep your palm in their face and knee strike to the groin. The palm has the advantage of occluding their vision while you strike low.