Hey Wes,
I've cut this down to only your highlighted sections to go through it, but I'm not sure how much help this will be.... that said, there are some things that can be cleared up from your selection.
That's doing not doing.
That's mushin......not some mystical thing that takes years to master.
Hmm, I'm not sure that BlackCatBonz really got any part of it, honestly.... cause that ain't mushin, that's just doing things mindlessly. That's the thing with mushin, while it's an absence of thought, it's not mindlessness. It's deliberate. And it does take years to master. I'll let you know when I'm halfway there....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.
Uh, again, nope. It is flowing, and it is open (to any and all information coming in). Again, I don't think he had much idea.
I've had an example of mushin described to me as doing a kata that you know well and losing yourself in the kata... you finish, knowing that you performed it well, but with no memory whatsoever of the individual moves. I have also experienced this once in competition.
Hmm, I've heard that explanation, and honestly it strikes me as an overly simplified explanation, probably given to Westerners, as it's really quite off base as well. Ideally, you want to be aware of what you've done/are doing, so the idea that you don't remember is the opposite of the aim of mushin.
What you want in a state of mushin is that you are more aware, not less. As a result, you are not surprised by anything (which occurs when you are caught thinking about something else, trying to "guess" what's about to happen, and so on)... by avoiding such traps, you remain more aware than at all other times. Not being aware of what you've done is the opposite of mushin.
Mushin is an altered state of mind that many martial artists will experience during their practice sessions, but usually only rarely. One problem is that as soon as you recognize that it is happening, it is gone. What takes years and years of dedicated practice is being able to move between normal consciousness and this state of flowing described by Takuan at will.
Well, mushin is an altered state, so I'll agree with that... mind you, so is daydreaming, so is being asleep, so is being engrossed in a movie. As far as many martial artists experiencing it, that I'm less sure of. The idea of "once you recognize that it is happening, it is gone", again, no, not necessarily. As you can (and should) train specifically for attaining a mushin mindset, you need (when training it) to be aware of it and maintain it. Again, I don't think that Nomad here got what Takuan Soto was meaning.
Mushin is a calm awareness and centeredness. Not saying that those moments when things just come together and you don't know how or what happens aren't great experiences -- but they're almost the opposite of mushin, at least as I understand the usage of the term.
Ah, that's better.
this experience was only the very beginning of mushin. it was the body doing in reflex without thought. it was the reflex of no mind that began to expose the real use of no mind in daily life.
No, it wasn't. It was the beginning of unconscious competence, which is a completely different phenomena.
I know that when I take the thought process out of an activity, it allows me to see more, feel more, hear more.
Okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was mushin. Unless you were deliberately focused on removing the extraneous thoughts, and allowing yourself to be open to all incoming information, as well as allowing yourself to "get out of your own way" when action is required.
I have heard of mushin as being a moving meditation. So, in the middle of confusion, one is able to focus by not focusing. One is able to see all without looking, able to hear all without listening, and above all feel through an avenue of a 6th sense.
It's not "moving meditation", but can be used as part of moving meditation. Mushin is a mindset, nothing to do with action or movement whatsoever. I can adopt mushin without any particular movement at all... I've done it sitting down at the front of the class to allow my students to "feel" what I'm talking about. The idea of a sixth sense is more that you just aren't letting your conscious mind get in the way of such messages coming through to you... so while it's certainly a part of it, they are still separate.
Tell you what, here's a physical representation:
In this picture, Musashi is said to be "open on all eight sides"... yet, at the same time, there is no possible opening for attack. There is no aggression, there is no defensive attitude, there is no evasion, there is no outflanking, there isn't even a guard. But there is mushin (or, as Musashi prefered, Heijoshin). If you can see this, you're on the way to understanding mushin.
To me, mushin means to be in the moment, not concerning yourself with what has come before or what comes after. No conscience, no fear, no hope, no anger and so on. It contains lots of sub-strata that are familiar to martial artists, some of which have come out above.
I have sometimes heard that to include that sublimation of the survival of the 'self' that allows the taking of an opening to give victory, even if the outcome is that you lose your life.
Definitely agreed with the first half. That's a big part of what I meant when I was talking about no judgement earlier. With the second part, the sutemi (sacrifice) concept can be part of it, but not necessarily. Again, as with Musashi, there isn't an opening for attack, so there's no sacrifice needed. Sutemi is more to do with having an "all or nothing" approach, and is a big part of strategy for arts that focus on mushin, so the connection is often made.
According to the book it means "mind no mind"...
Not exactly. "Mushin" (
無心
refers more literally to "an absence (mu - 無 of present mind/heart (shin - 心", which is sometimes loosely translated as "mind of no mind" (more realistically that refers to "Mushin no Shin", though).
And his face...changed...it's hard to explain, but all of the wrinkles in his face smoothed out, his eyes assumed something of an empty expression(not vacant, however), and I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...
I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?
That might have been... but then again, it could have just been a good act. But that's more the feeling of mushin (and related concepts such as fudoshin).
It would be difficult to answer that.
I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did.
Ha, they should be able to tell you... the result should be something like described by Jason. Cold.
Better definition of Mushin:
The momentary perfect alignment of mind, body and spirit to purpose.
No, that's quite a bad definition, as it ignores pretty much everything that mushin is about.
PS -- yes. Had it. Amazing experience. Did a lot of work to try to elicit it fomr my students. Didn't see the Tom Cruise movie Las Samurai, until one of my old BB's said they did a good cinemagraphic rep of mushin. They did.
Actually, for my favourite cinematic examples of mushin, I watch The Seven Samurai. Although it's not specifically mentioned (well, it wouldn't be... it didn't need explaining as it does for a Western audience), watch for the attitude displayed by Kambei when he rescues the child from the kidnapper early in the film... or Kyuzo's attitude for his duel. Perfectly done.
As for developing it, try meditation and shugyo.
No. As for developing it, train it. Specifically and deliberately. Meditation can be part of that, but shugyo (travelling/journeying)? Uh.... huh?
Yes, I have experienced it often, and find it easier to achieve the longer I train, and practice it. I hope this statement does not sound arrogant, or like I am bragging, but it is just a fortunate by-product of my training. I don't know if I have a natural ability, a knack for it, or if it is because I was introduced to the concept at an early age, and have practiced it for my entire life. I am sure my students have observed it in my demeanor at various times, as you did with your instructor, but it is really only something that the person experiencing it can know, for sure, when it has occurred.
Personally, I would not disagree with any of the above definitions, or explanations as it is a personal experience that can occur during any action, anytime, anywhere. Many people have it happen during routine activities of the day. Others during the performance of a sport. Golfers, such as Tiger Woods, no doubt has utilized the skill, as well as race car drivers, stunt men, gun-fighters of the old American West, and many more. For the untrained individual, it is more likely to occur when you least expect it, during a repetitious and familiar activity, or in an instant response to a sudden stimulus or urgent situation.
Hmm. To my mind, there's a difference between "being in the zone", which is what is described here, and mushin.
The Wikipedia definition is accurate that it is shortened from "Mushin No Shin" (Mind of No Mind). It means that your conscious mind must be clear of thought, allowing your subconscious to act in perfect response without interference. If you know the best, ideal action in any given situation, you must not "think" about it - - just do it by subconscious reflex.
Again, this is more "being in the zone", not mushin.
He says "No mind!" This means no distractions, no emotion, no intent to attack, and no forethought on what your opponent might do, or how you will respond.
That's better. We could also use a Star Wars quote from Phantom Menace to the same effect, though...
Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment, young padawan. Be mindful of the living force."
Says the same thing, really, and in both cases it's not the whole story by a fair stretch.
My understanding is that mushin is a level of awareness and detachment. You're not thinking, not expecting, not caring -- but completely aware and acting completely under control at the same time. Something happens, and you respond correctly, smoothly, intentionally -- but you haven't planned it and you don't do it in a consciously planned manner.
Except that acting isn't required, as it's really all to do with the mindset. Other than that, agreed.
Confused yet?
It's a really hard concept to understand -- but unmistakable when you see and experience it.
True.
I took all afternoon to ponder this Mushin thing. Above, I highlighted what many other posters had to say going back some 6 years. If someone has a different take, or can enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated, by me, and I would think many others.......
Hopefully this has helped a bit... although I'm not entirely sure it hasn't just added to the confusion!
The best kept secret in all martial arts?
Ha, not necessarily... but perhaps one of the least properly instructed aspects. In essence, though, the more traditional (old) a system, the more likely there is to be an emphasis on this concept in one form or another.
Were we all taught wrong?
Now that's harder to say... I'd be more inclined to say "taught incompletely", or "taught according to a different emphasis". What is the instruction as pertains to ki/chi? If it's not emphasised, or even present, is that being taught "wrong" as well? How about kiai as anything other than a shout, or a method of breathing?
Are there some that don't feel there is such a thing call Mushin, that even exists?
Certainly. Most commonly Western practitioners of modern systems... although I'd be more likely to think that it's often given little more than lip service, as it's not understood well enough. But by the same token, are there some that feel there isn't such a thing as ki/chi? That it even exists? Again, those who are introduced to it often and early are more likely to be accepting of such concepts, if it's only given lip service, or not mentioned at all, many martial artists will deny things outside of their own experience... in other words, if they haven't needed it til now, and they're "powerful, skilled martial artists", then anyone talking about it being necessary must be compensating for something....
Could it be part of our martial training but called something else?
There are a range of related concepts, such as fudoshin (immovable mind) and heijoshin (peace through a constant mind/spirit), but mushin is pretty much it's own term with a specific meaning, so no, if it's not referred to as mushin, odds are it's just not the same thing. It's probably an imitation of it, honestly.
Is it more prevalent in some arts, and and no where to be found in others?
It's more prevalent in arts (and cultures) steeped in Buddhism. There are similar ideas found in Western systems, but the specifics come from Zen Buddhism.
Is it a lost concept from days of old?
Lost? Not in the slightest! It's just not present in all systems teachings, that's all.
Are the more modern arts being cheated out of a training tool, because no one has a clear answer?
That's really a personal, subjective opinion. Personally, I feel it is a necessary part of martial study, but then again it's a big part of the arts I study.
I gave my best shot above, and my training goes back many years. Hate to beat a dead "thread" , but, can someone add a different slant to the above thinking?
That's the thing. Mushin is experienced, not explained. So we can really only go so far in this medium... pointing to examples and illustrations, removing things that aren't, rather than giving absolute definitions of what is.
Check out the video below, that I found on youtube. Is this the Mushin (no mind) that some have felt in training?
Not entirely, no. The concept of mushin within Zen Buddhism is a bit different to that of martial traditions, although highly related.
Within Zen, it's more about detachment from external influence and distraction, whereas in martial arts it's about being open to what's real over what isn't.
Hmm, maybe that isn't too clear....
