Multiculturalism will fail: Tarek Fatah

[Big Don]

Multiculturalism will fail: Tarek Fatah

By TERRY DAVIDSON, Toronto Sun EXCERPT:

Last Updated: February 7, 2011 9:06pm
A prominent voice in Canada’s Muslim community said British Prime Minister David Cameron was “spot on” when he insisted British multiculturalism has failed.
And just like Britain, Canada’s will fail, said Muslim Canadian Congress founder Tarek Fatah.
He said Monday that, like Britain, Canada has been too tolerant in allowing Muslim immigrants to settle into closed communities, some of which preach Islamic values and a hatred toward the West.
“The Canadian multicultural model has failed, as the British model has,” said Fatah. “When first generation (Muslims) are more loyal to Canada than the second generation, then we have sufficient evidence to say that multiculturalism has failed.”
Citing the Toronto 18 terrorist plot as an example of the extremism that can result from ethnic isolation, Fatah said he hoped Canada can “pick up on” the points Cameron made in a controversial speech on Saturday.
While speaking at a security conference in Germany, Cameron called for an end to Britain’s “passive tolerance” of divided ethnic communities. He also said beefing up was needed in the prevention of extremism.
Fatah said Canada’s Liberal and Conservative governments push a tolerant, passive form of multiculturalism as a way of preserving votes.
END EXCERPT

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye that was much the sort of point I was making about multiculturalisms schismatic effects several years ago - indeed I made some posts about it in this very forum if I recall correctly.

To be a part of the society within which you dwell, you cannot be apart from that self same society. The strands of different cultures and ethnicities must twist together into a rope or else the whole thing unravels like a ball of string the kittens have been at.

 

[Empty Hands]

To be a part of the society within which you dwell, you cannot be apart from that self same society.

Orthodox Jews, the Amish, some Mormon sects, Commune-types, many nationalities and ethnicities over our history - all have lived apart, we've managed to accommodate them all without dissolving yet.

 

[Sukerkin]

I don't believe that you believe that that is the same phenomenon being addressed in the much wider picture of a society in which certain regions are receiving large influxes of population.

As ever I note that if you don't cover absolutely every angle in a post of less than a hundred words someone will pull a stick out of it to beat you over the head with. For the record, I did think of precisely those minority groups that you mentioned EH.

Their seperate existence is not a danger to the body politic in the same way as the deliberately divisive elements commonly touted as 'multicultural'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Multiculturalism

 

[Empty Hands]

Their seperate existence is not a danger to the body politic in the same way as the deliberately divisive elements commonly touted as 'multicultural'.

I see no difference other than perhaps numerical, so this isn't me nitpicking you. I see no qualitative difference. As I obliquely mentioned from our immigrant history, we have had very large populations living separately, so even the numerical differences don't always hold up. None has proven a danger to our society by their existence.

What pretty much always happens is that unless they are prevented (see France) immigrant populations naturally assimilate over time, usually fully by the 3rd generation. We've accommodated many such waves in our history, always to our benefit, even if many refused to admit that at the time. All went through a generation or two of separate living, separate languages and separate lives. All eventually joined the mainstream as their children and grandchildren learned the language and became part of the whole, for the opportunity if nothing else - ethnic ghettos tend to be very poor. This is just life and human nature, and nothing to get all that concerned about.

We certainly don't get wound up about the Orthodox Jews or the Amish, so I'm not sure why we should with the Pakistanis, the Indians, Muslims generally, or whomever else.

 

[Big Don]

I see no difference other than perhaps numerical, so this isn't me nitpicking you. I see no qualitative difference.

Of course you don't, There are none so blind as those, that will not see. For an example, you obviously ignored this:

some of which preach Islamic values and a hatred toward the West.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ahh :nods:.

What we have observed over here is that the first of the waves of immigration (talking about the 60's and 70's here) were more than happy to try to become a part of the society - it's what they came here for. They were escaping the strictures and hardships of a caste and religion bound culture for one where their ability mattered more than their birth and, importantly, one where religion was a personal choice. Their children were on the whole 'British', other than a few that bucked the trend. Amongst their grandchildren, however, is proving to be where the seeds of a potential problem lie.

That is tied in with those amongst the most recent arrivals who do not come here because they want to be part of our society.

It is an odd reversal of the usual process of assimilation and it is, so it is thought in political circles, being fueled from outside by (as is nearly always the case) inimicable religious extremists.

It is not an imagined circumstance or some post-Imperial angst - it is a real problem and one that is being made worse by pandering to the divisive elements. To those who do not think so, I invite you to sell up, emigrate to Britain and set up house in somewhere like the Normacot region of Stoke-on-Trent. Other than the fact that the area clearly has period terraced housing you'd be hard pressed to realise you were in an English city and you would not feel very welcome I would guess.

The sealing wax on the page is that it is not just those of white English ethnicity who see this as a problem. In my place of work, I sit amongst a wide panoply of people. Just by turning in my chair I can see more than half a dozen ethnicities, european, near-eastern and far-eastern. Now, aye, we are a cultural slice in our own right being well educated and esconced in the same profession but there are not many who do not see the unrest in our midst as a major worry.

What we do about it without giving sway to the increasing surge of far-right-wingers who pedal their own insidious form of race-hate I do not know. It is so tempting to give in to the urge to "Send the buggers back, they're not the ones we want!" but that is not the way to a long term solution.

 

[Big Don]

There is a HUGE difference between those who move somewhere because they want to be a part of whatever that place is, and those who move somewhere and want to change it into where they left.

 

[CanuckMA]

You're seeing a not uncommon phenomena.

A large portion of the off-the-boat generation will try to assimilate.

The second generation will try hard to 'regain their roots'

The third generation and beyond WILL assimilate to a very large extent.

 

[elder999]

There is a HUGE difference between those who move somewhere because they want to be a part of whatever that place is, and those who move somewhere and want to change it into where they left.

That's why every major city in the U.S. has a Chinatown........and Milwaukee has a "Little Poland"..........there's Korea towns, and Japan towns, and Little Italies, and........well, you get the idea.

"Multiculturalism" doesn't fail when values are shared, and middle class aspirations are within the reach of all groups.

 

[Sukerkin]

"Multiculturalism" doesn't fail when values are shared, and middle class aspirations are within the reach of all groups.

Quoted for truth :tup:. The Indian immigrants who became the staple of corner shop ownership over here are a classic example of that. They came over, started with little, worked like blazes and got ahead. They achieved success by working as part of the society they elected to join - which is why many of them now drive around in Mercedes and all credit to them for it.

 

[granfire]

The hatemongers will always exist, no matter the roots.

I actually find that most of those who make a good living by stirring the pot have little to do with the roots. They have the gift of gab and probably not many other mentionable skills.

 

[Empty Hands]

That is tied in with those amongst the most recent arrivals who do not come here because they want to be part of our society.

It is an odd reversal of the usual process of assimilation and it is, so it is thought in political circles, being fueled from outside by (as is nearly always the case) inimicable religious extremists.

OK, let's assume this is true. What are the numbers? How many, and what percent of the population feels that way? How many can the nation tolerate before civil society is disrupted?

It's easy to point to one or two loud examples or striking news stories to fuel a vague sense of disaster. You might be ignoring the vast majority who just wants to do exactly what you say you want them to do. In other words, it might not really be a problem. No more so than "white people" are a problem in the UK because of the BNP.

Other than the fact that the area clearly has period terraced housing you'd be hard pressed to realise you were in an English city and you would not feel very welcome I would guess.

Simply put, so what? I might not feel at home and see the usual sights in Harlem or Crown Heights (an Orthodox neighborhood), but that doesn't make those places "un-American" or tearing the city apart. I've spent time in Greek Orthodox neighborhoods (wonderful food) with a different language and culture. I've spent time in many Hispanic neighborhoods. At no time did I feel that my nation was dissolving around me.

Why does the presence of people with different backgrounds living differently, freedom in other words, threaten your vision of your country?

It is so tempting to give in to the urge to "Send the buggers back, they're not the ones we want!" but that is not the way to a long term solution.

The long term solution is to allow people to live as they please, and in time the problem solves itself. Of course, then the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those immigrants will be worried about the new strange bunch in town.

 

[Archangel M]

Uhh. I think that yall are missing the main point. It's not about ethnic concentrations or "assimilation" pe se. It's about these concentrations also spouting hate and anti-American rhetoric at the same time. It's not about not fitting in, its about actively "hating" your new country. Or trying to install your own system of cultural laws in disregard to (or expecting acceptance by) your new nations laws. And if it's not "the entire" segment of society, there is obvious tacit acceptance of these groups.

Try to find something like THAT anywhere in an Amish society....

 

[granfire]

Uhh. I think that yall are missing the main point. It's not about ethnic concentrations or "assimilation" pe se. It's about these concentrations also spouting hate and anti-American rhetoric at the same time. It's not about not fitting in, its about actively "hating" your new country. Or trying to install your own system of cultural laws in disregard to (or expecting acceptance by) your new nations laws. And if it's not "the entire" segment of society, there is obvious tacit acceptance of these groups.

Try to find something that THAT anywhere in an Amish society....

You find enough of that there, too, I bet. There is the clear demarkation line between the Amish and the 'English'

However.

There are those who make a pretty darn good living and stirring the pot.
Most of them have no harsh life, they come from well educated background, studied many places.

If they spew hate here or there, against the US or whatever...it makes no difference.
yes, there will always be the down on their luck who will listen. But it has nothing to do with race or culture and all with power and money.

They are no different from the PETA freaks, or the Godfather of propaganda (you know who I mean, don't make me spell it out for the sake of the thread!)

So they are from the middle east. Or the little emperor from venezuela...don't forget, there are enough of their ilk here in the US spouting the very same garbage into the other direction. But since the cameras are not pointed in their direction...

 

[Archangel M]

So Suk is wrong? There are no "issues" there? He's just a xenophobe?

 

[granfire]

So Suk is wrong? There are no "issues" there? He's just a xenophobe?

There are always issues.

But taking the word of a loudmouth blowhard for it....nvm, you guys get your news from Rush and Beck

The point is that those who do the most talking, and the loudest do not necessarily represent the population as a whole.

Of course, if left unchecked they can do a lot of damage (history is full of precedent) but in general most people don't care past day to day living. Much to the shagrin of those who do the talking. And mind you, they do the talking...they try to find the others to do the doing.

I am not saying there are not those who are disgruntled and vulnerable to such speak, but the majority is not. Not until pushed though. When minding your own business becomes a hassle then you have a problem.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Orthodox Jews, the Amish, some Mormon sects, Commune-types, many nationalities and ethnicities over our history - all have lived apart, we've managed to accommodate them all without dissolving yet.

The thing is that although these groups live apart and many within those groups don't want a part of mainstream society, they don't share a hatred of the place they are living in.

Many muslims make a place for themselves in western society yet there are areas where some have more than just differing views, their views are anti-western and anti-modern.
Where women cover their faces and males have trouble getting jobs and rely on the welfare system while developing further anger for the society they're feeding off of.

This demonstrates more than just isolated ethnicity, it demonstrates an utter lack of respect and even a disdain for the very place they've chosen to call home.

Again, it's wrong to say all or even most muslims are like this because that simply is not true but it does exist and seems to be becoming more prevalent.

 

[Empty Hands]

Many muslims make a place for themselves in western society yet there are areas where some have more than just differing views, their views are anti-western and anti-modern.
Where women cover their faces and males have trouble getting jobs and rely on the welfare system while developing further anger for the society they're feeding off of.

This precisely describes the FLDS splinter sects of the Mormon church. We haven't banned them from the country yet, nor have they caused the country to go up in flames.

Until some numbers start showing up, we have no idea how big a problem this even is, or even if it is a problem. There are plenty of standard whitebread Americans who could be described as having similar views or even a hatred of America, and again we haven't banned them from the country yet. No one has shown that the Muslims are any different.

Also, freedom is freedom. You can't promise freedom on the one hand and then restrict acceptable thought and lifestyles on the other. At least not without showing yourself as a massive freedom hating hypocrite.