muay thai health hazards

[muayThaiPerson]

Briney is right. ive read that too but dont remeber where. i think it is mainly caused by kicking bamboo trees. im not sure but please post some research

 

[muayThaiPerson]

Nevermind...although I said i read it somewhere, i just did a quick research and found nothing. the only occurence i found was when this guy had a tumor in his shin. But he was a X-Country runner, not a MT fighter

 

[birney29]

Damian,

didnt mean to snap mate, but for all the non americans that use the internet, its immensely fustrating that North americans seem to assume that they are the center of the universe. no offence was meant.

Thunder foot,

about the conditioning,

i kinda think your missing my point. you talk of conditioning the shin. It is this conditioning that causes damage. after all, what do we mean when we speak of conditioning? its damaging the nerves so we feel less pain. And bashing the shin bone again and again can not be good for it.

the article,

i will try and find the article today at work and post it here. ive got nothing better to do at work anyway!

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

No, I do believe I see your point. I was just inquiring as to the proof so that I can get a little more insight on the subject.

Dulling the nerves of the shin may appear damaging, but I haven't seen any real proof to the damaging effects... stronger bone mass maybe?

The article would be much appreciated.

 

[birney29]

okay guys, sorry bout the delay.

not the article i originally read but,

http://www.realfighting.com/1001/fl.htm

seems to be quite interesting. i will keep trying to find the first article. its so fustrating not being able to find it!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Who is this fellow, Frank Ludde ? What is his qualification?

I read the article. It is something you would hear at the local bar.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I tried contacting the source of the article, but the email address was not valid.

I read the article, there was many valid points, but I disagree with some of his statements. Shins are toughened to prevent injury during use of that particular weapon. I don't think both side of the controversy were considered.

The context of that article was a little extreme. IMHO.

 

[sweeper]

I think that was a little one sided. He was talking about major desesitisation to pain, like killing all the nerves off and the injury that accumulates because of the lack of sensitivity.. Now I could kick a bag for quite some time without it hurting, but that doesn't mean I don't have any sensitivity, if you poke me with a knife or a needle It's still gona hurt.. likewise if I fracture my shin I will deffenatly know it (ok this hasn't happened to me so I guess I might not know it but than again I'm not a thai boxer).

I mean it's one thing to hit a pad over and over again, it's another to be in constant pain and try to hobbel through it.

I think alot of it is just common sence.. if you get hurt, I don't mean simply fealing pain or discomfort, but if you are injured, you better stop and let it heal. I know this from playing soccer, you can have a bad sprain that would heal in two weeks and play out the rest of a game and have it heal in 3 months.. that's just a partialy torn tendon, now if you have a fractured shin that's even worse just because anytime you have weight on that leg 1: it's destributed through your bone and 2: your muscles have to stabalise your anckle so they are pulling on the bone. (where as a sprain you can avoid putting preasure on the injured tissue in most cases. than add on repeated impact and I can see how things could start to snowball leaving you "out of the fight" for quite a but of time, or perhaps just having a persistant injury.

I Don't think that interview says as much about conditioning being bad as extreem conditioning.

 

[birney29]

i think its a well written and sensible article. The problem is i think people dont want to belive it. im a thai boxer and i woudl love it if what the guy is saying wasnt true, but it must be. If you kick things with your shins again and again, you arent doing your shins any favours. Theres no point living in a fantasy world, we are damaging our bodys. We can call it conditioning if we like, and try to kid ourselves that we wont have any long term harm, but i, and a lot of others realise that is not the case.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

What the guy wrote, essentially, was "if the pain becomes intolerable, then you should stop". Great revelation there!

"...Desensitizing any body part is an act against nature; it has a very high price. In some cases blood clots can form. Then the price is STROKE, and in extreme cases DEATH..."

If you get hit, you have bruises, desentisized or not. Bruises are blood clots, hematoma. How many cases of stroke as a result of that? How many cases of death as a result of that?

Desensitizing the shin properly, is not going to cause any problem. The damage is the result of improper methods.

Using the shin against muscle targets is not going to damage your shin. Shin to shin impact DO have the greatest risk of cracking the shin. Hardly a revelation neither. But this is where the source of problem lies.

 

[birney29]

"Desensitizing the shin properly, is not going to cause any problem. The damage is the result of improper methods"

err, i think it might. the fact you have killed nerves is surely a problem in itself. the guy that wrote the article seems to know what he is talking about.

"If you get hit, you have bruises, desentisized or not. Bruises are blood clots, hematoma. How many cases of stroke as a result of that? How many cases of death as a result of that?"

quite a lot actually, and i think your missing the guys point. he said in some cases that blood clots can form. this is true. it happened to my dad just before Christmas. can it cause strokes, of course it can! no one is saying that a little bruise is gonna kill you. but a really bad bruise in a bad area, can, and will cause you serious problems. if you want to stick your head in the sand and prentend your invincible, thats your problem. i genuinely hope nothing bad happens to you. But dont kid yourself on that "conditioning" your shins will do you know harm. By definition you are damagind them.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Hundreds of thousands of martial artists have "desensitized" their fists and hands striking the heavy bags, bean bags, sand buckets or what have you. How many have dropped death of stroke as a result of blood clots?

"..a really bad bruise in a bad area, can, and will cause you serious problems...."

No kidding. But, we are talking about the shin here. I would like to see some medical research showing that banging the shin can result in stroke. Has anyone ever gotten a stroke from bruises to the shin?

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

That article appeared to be both, one-sided and extreme.

Conditioning can be traced all throughout nature. Animals condition themselves according to the task needed for their survival. Are they damaging their bodies in the long term? No, their bodies adapt to whatever task they are involved in. The same thing applies to Martial Arts, which has been the reason that all Martial Arts that come to my mind have practiced in this manner. I can't think of one art that doesn't directly involve, or contain as a by-product of training, the act of conditioning.

From the context of the article, It would seem that daily life activities also cause nerve damage. Seriously though, in order to be effective at anything that involves repetition, you have to condition yourself.

In Respect,

THuNdeR_FoOT

 

[Damian Mavis]

I do TKD, as a result my ankles are messed up from the constant pressure put on them from kicking with them. I was so happy when I joined Muay Thai because it took the pressure off my ankles and onto my shins. You are right Birney29 if you constantly kick bone with bone you will have problems...but only fighters with over 100 fights have to worry about that. In my training we all kick nice comfy thai pads. Theres no pain, no injury and no reason to worry. Even the banana bag is way to soft to cause the kind of damage you are thinking of. I just dont get your attitude on this subject, how hardcore do you train?! Because no one I've met trains as hard as you are thinking of, it's the pro fighters with tons of fights that get constant damage done to their shins IN THE RING, not during training. Considering most of us dont have to worry about any of this the whole topic is moot.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[birney29]

once again, i think people are kidding themselves.

Damian,

my training is pretty hard, and i do fight competitively. But, the most damage i do to myself is in training. Without a doubt. the sheer repition that we do in training is what will cause us problems. even slamming against a thai pad 100's of times over will damage your body. Maybe not a lot, but over time it might mount out.

Thunder,

you compared this to the animal kingdom. How many tigers have you seen attacking trees for practise?

everyone seems to talk about "conditioning" kidding themselves them on that in there own case, its different and not doing themselves damage. you are!! thats what conditioning is! damage. If you are going to do serious martial arts, you will have to condition the areas of your body that are used for striking or blocking. no one is disputing that. But dont carry on living in a fantasy world where you think you are doing your body no harm.

 

[Damian Mavis]

"But, the most damage i do to myself is in training"

Honestly man I think you are training unsafely if you are damaging yourself during training...I'm not trying to argue with you for the sake of arguing but kicking the thai pads is not damaging your shins in a way that is going to give you problems down the road. Even the old pro fighters here in Thailand in their 50's and 60's that have fought hundreds of times say they have no problems but I'm sure there are those that do. My point is... these guys kick shin on shin thousands of times throughout their lives... the people reading this board might never do that even once.... kicking Thai pads and banana bags repetitivley is a safe way to condition your shins a bit. The pro fighters here say it takes about 50 fights before you stop feeling pain from full contact shin on shin strikes in the ring.

Yes you are right we are doing ourselves harm, getting a bruise on your shin is harm of a sort. It's obviously damaged whether it hurts or not. Will it cause serious problems down the road in life from getting a few bruises from the banana bag? NO.

When you fight is it with shin guards or is it bare shin full contact fighting?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by birney29

Thunder,

you compared this to the animal kingdom. How many tigers have you seen attacking trees for practise?

everyone seems to talk about "conditioning" kidding themselves them on that in there own case, its different and not doing themselves damage. you are!! thats what conditioning is! damage. If you are going to do serious martial arts, you will have to condition the areas of your body that are used for striking or blocking. no one is disputing that. But dont carry on living in a fantasy world where you think you are doing your body no harm.

Animals do condition themselves. Its key to their survival, but I'm not going to argue on that.

I do agree with you. Conditioning DOES cause self-damage. But only in extreme cases. But i think you're forgetting the variables that come into play. There is the severity and intensity of the training that is done. I believe Damien is also right in his comments. Unless you're a professional fighter with constant bouts, chances are you won't really have any problems. Unless you have infinite amounts of time to devote yourself to training, the severity will never be the same.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Theres been a lot goin around that when a Muay Thai fighter gets old, the body is weaker than average. Supposebly due to the punishment. But i dont understand the concept of this. If a fighter has stronger than average shins, then how do they end up weaker than other people later on?

Maybe they are talking about micro fractures or calcium deposits in the shins as a result of “conditioning”.
Something along the lines of permanent shin splints I guess.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Yes you are right we are doing ourselves harm, getting a bruise on your shin is harm of a sort. It's obviously damaged whether it hurts or not. Will it cause serious problems down the road in life from getting a few bruises from the banana bag? NO.

Actually bruises can lead to all sorts of complications.

 

[muayThaiPerson]

by desentisizing, i believe the author means to get a rolling pin and rolling your shin. or any other way of explicity desentisizing. when kicking a heavy bag, the point of impact is a soft dense surface. its not a hard surface. kicking ply wood of low density is totally unlike kicking a heavy bag of high density. when kicking heavy bags, you still maintain feeling...my shins are denser and i still have feeling. i used to kick helmets, they hurt so i stopped. after my training, i kicked a helmet, it didnt hurt and i broke it (the helmet). but i tried to kick a wooden chair, it hurt. where am i getting? kicking a heavy bag makes your bone stronger while maintianing the feeling