muay boran -- new section needed !!!!! :)

[Chris Parker]

Ah, you edited while I was editing… we'll chalk that up to synchronicity, yeah?

God damn it. I really need to stop speaking. Yeah, Chris, while trying to prove my own point I realized that you were right. Fair play.

Nah, no need for you to stop talking… I might suggest focusing more on questions, seeking clarification ("I thought it was this… is that not correct?"), rather than making statements when you're not actually in the know, so to speak… but really, if you hadn't posted, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to clarify, which could help others who are thinking similar things as yourself.

Absolutely keep being engaged here… we like that… just remember that there are people here that have been doing this much longer than you… in cases, twice as long as you've been alive… and don't be discouraged when you get corrected. We're doing it to help your understanding.

Speaking of…

Japanese Jujitsu focused on the use of weapons at that time with a secondary emphasis on unarmed combat. I assumed it was the other way around because that's how it's always taught nowadays, I wonder why it changed? It's a shame, I'd love to learn a weapons art.

Uh… no. Jujutsu (never "jujitsu"&#8230 never "focused on the use of weapons"… some systems, particularly the older ones, would incorporate weaponry into the syllabus a fair bit… or, more commonly, it would be a weapon art (naginata, kenjutsu, sojutsu etc) which would have a jujutsu aspect to it, or a jujutsu section… which might be purely unarmed in and of itself, or might have a range of weaponry concepts itself, whether using, defending against, or both.

When it comes to "how it's taught now", most of what's taught under that name really bears little resemblance to anything to do with Japanese jujutsu at all (historically, culturally, conceptually, technically, strategically, tactically, and so on)… those that actually are Japanese jujutsu are still the same as they were. And yeah, some forms had very little weaponry… by and large, they were later developed systems during the Tokugawa period (Edo Jidai), which was a period of peacetime (and isolation). The lack of warfare allowed the systems to focus more on single areas, develop in a wider array of forms, gain greater sophistication in technical approaches, and more.

 

[donnaTKD]

i listen more to people like yourself that have been studying this nearly as long as i've been alive

in fight schools and competition environments the history of things and moves are done the way they are goes out of window in favour of "this is how you score points" and now i've chosen to make the move to muay boran which from what i've seen isn't taught to be competitive -- i'm pretty sure from the video you posted that it could be -- instead it's taught as the ancient art form --- the forms contained within mae mai and luk mai with the emphasis on knowing why certain things are done that way etc..... and with that comes the knowledge and history of muay boran.

i think for me the difference between the two muay's is that muay thai is taught as a competition points scoring system whereas mauy boran seems to be being taught as an art rather than a fighting system --- hope that makes sense

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Donna,

it's always nice to be "put down" by someone who knows a heck of a lot more about a topic than what's contained within what it is that i'm reading

thankyou for your statements

Ha, "put down" isn't quite what I'm intending…

don't if there's much truth behind this but i keep reading muay thai isn't actually thai and that it was imposed on them by some king of cambodian descent and that muay thai/boran was only taught to those closest to the royalty of that time and then as time went on the thai's then practiced this art form.

The thing with all of these methods/systems (muay Thai, muay Boran etc) is that the history is pretty much folklore, legend, and myth. The actual history of the area is rather cloudier, due to a range of factors, and I'd take everything with a huge sack of salt…

One example is the mention of muay Boran as being linked in with the royalty… other than folk tales, there's no evidence for that at all. Nor is there really much evidence for muay Boran even existing centuries ago (let alone 600 years ago)… at best, looking at the approach of the system, it was largely a ritualistic combative expression highly influenced by Chinese systems probably about two, maybe three centuries old (if I'm being generous). Honestly, what it matches the closest in terms of historical claims, and purpose, is Capoeira.

It really doesn't come across as that ancient, and the variety of methods belie the idea that it was for actual combat, no matter how "brutal" they are, or appear to be. They're simply not high-return enough to have ever been relied on… muay Thai is far closer that way.

the regional differences i was talking about place higher priority on a single technique be it, feet, elbows, knees or hands - muay thai as it is today does not allow use of the head. as i understand it muay boran in competition was within "tribes" in times of peace.

Yeah, I know the concept… there were four directions, with each being known for a speciality… punching from the East, strategy (wit) from the centre, (strong) posture from the South, and speed from the North. None of those were what they were limited to, of course, more what they were known for… for example, those from the East were known for very strong punches… whereas those from the central region were known as very smart, tactical fighters.

When it comes to what exactly is allowed in muay Thai competition versus what's found in muay Boran's repertoire, honestly, that's rather a moot point.

please feel free to shoot this down and enlighten me at the same time i only know about the histtory of it from what i've read

Ha, no, not "shoot down"… expand on, maybe… But my overall point is simple: what is put forth as the history around the place is rather sensationalist, propagandist in feel, and largely suspect. Don't fall for all the rhetoric and overblown hyperbole. Muay Boran looks quite fascinating… just don't get suckered in by all the talk of how "ultimate, deadly, brutal" it is… or by how it's about killing, or use on a battlefield. None of that is particularly true (other than the "brutal" comment… which is in the eye of the beholder… to me? Eh&#8230.

i listen more to people like yourself that have been studying this nearly as long as i've been alive

in fight schools and competition environments the history of things and moves are done the way they are goes out of window in favour of "this is how you score points" and now i've chosen to make the move to muay boran which from what i've seen isn't taught to be competitive -- i'm pretty sure from the video you posted that it could be -- instead it's taught as the ancient art form --- the forms contained within mae mai and luk mai with the emphasis on knowing why certain things are done that way etc..... and with that comes the knowledge and history of muay boran.

Kinda… I can see where you're coming from, and it's largely semantics to get into it, so I'll broadly say "yep".

i think for me the difference between the two muay's is that muay thai is taught as a competition points scoring system whereas mauy boran seems to be being taught as an art rather than a fighting system --- hope that makes sense

Yeah, it makes sense… and it's really going to depend on where you go. There's a "World Muay Boran" group who held their first "World Championship" recently… so you know…

 

[donnaTKD]

^^^thankyou ^^^

it's always good to learn new things at least i now know the history or rather the legends that go with muay boran/thai

seems it's bit like witchcraft and magical hocus pocus then if the campfire stories were told by the village witch doctor -- i can fully believe that. if what i'm reading into is right then it just as easily be that the people wanted to create something that would help them to beat the evil spirits and stuff - that's what the rituals lead me to believe (no idea if this is right/wrong).

take the ritual of the snake charmer with the contestant being the snake for instance --- that's just worshipping the flute is it not ?????

and lastly - it is my belief that every MA has the potential for both art forms and competition -- they all have their own moves which if intended could cause serious harm to another person.

the hype that goes with MA's is just that - you can sign up and say "i go to MT" - doesn't mean anything to your average person -- whether it's deadly or not depends on the person practicing the art and whether they've got their forms/moves nailed with enough power, strength and speed to do such damage.

one other interesting thing that i've found --- talk to people about muay thai and they're interested - talk to them about kickboxing (cos that's essentially what it is) and they get scared --- never understood why though.

 

[Chris Parker]

Look to things like the wai khru ram muay for what I'm talking about as "ritualistic"…

In many cases, there would be symbolic "battles", often as an offering or representative sacrifice, in front of a shrine or temple… it could be to provide a good harvest… or anything, really. According to muay Boran's stated history, this ritual would be done as an offering to the King that you would be fighting in front of (which could also be taken as representative of "village elders", if we play this out)… in Japan, you have Sumo developing in similar ways… it was, and still retains many aspects of, a Shinto ritual… the "roof" that is suspended over the dohyo (ring) is representative of the Shinto shrine that the (outdoors) bouts would be performed in front of.

Different versions would have either highly choreographed performances (again, to look at Japan, that's the origin of the Embu, martial demonstrations, that you can see on you-tube), partially choreographed displays (think WWE, actually), through to all-out actual contests. What muay Boran was/is, that I'll leave up to the readers…

 

[donnaTKD]

so to put it simply (loosely) --- it's a thai regional religion that promotes "keeping fit and staying active" in front of whoever is chief at the time

now that makes sense - well to me anyways

i've been practicing muay thai for about 20years and it's only now that i've gone accross to the art side of things that i find that i'm learning new stuff - not simply moves and how to score points quickly or do clean strikes and i'm actually fascinated by it all

sorry if my comments seemed ignorant but i've learnt more from your comments in this thread than by reading stuff posted elsewhere

many thanks for getting involved

 

[Chris Parker]

My pleasure.

 

[Transk53]

no worries

not getting ahead of myself gunna go for a look see first - tony says that the basis for both MB and MT is the same as what i'm doing now so not expecting too much, just want to go and watch how they do things - s'all

that video was really good it's nice to see things done in slow mo with the names of the moves to accompany them too

at the moment i do both of those with some variations contained within each --- and that video for me just highlighted where i put those extra moves and stuff - really good watch

i don't worry about injuries too much anymore they happen you just gotta soak it up and get on with it both my legs have rodss, pins, plates and screws in them and i have doctors warning that if i break either of them again and the rod gets bent then i'll be training MT wearing prosthetics

Crikey, I will retract some my earlier post. Man that sounds like you have been through the mill

 

[donnaTKD]

through the mill maybe but would i part with experiences that got me this way -- no chance

it's no bad thing being told that once more and that's it -- sort of gives you a wake up call and tells you that you gotta behave properly from now on --- also means that you can sort of prepare for the day you get your prosthetics and hoping that that day will never come

 

[Transk53]

it's no bad thing being told that once more and that's it -- sort of gives you a wake up call

Yeah different context, but yeah I hear ya on that. Have you got that book MB yet?

 

[donnaTKD]

the MB book is still in the UK postal system it said 3 to 5 days for delivery so am expecting it soon

i got the MB dvd --- what an eye opener there's so much that is legal in it compared to the MT i was being taught at fight school where the stuff i was practising was considered illegal.

gunna take a while to digest what's in it i think. one other point my coach trained in thailand and Tony who runs Sitsiam in ashton-under-lyne was his coach so it might not be beyond the realms of possibility to get the two of them to hook up in warrington from what scotty said tony's just come back to the UK after 30years training MB and MT in thailand so he must surely know his stuff

will let you know what the books like when it finally turns up

i also ordered 7 weeks to get ripped fantasic book and what's more there's no gym involved and the only kit you need is yourself, a medcine ball weight is your choice , and a pull up bar and that's it it's packed with all sorts of stuff including the nutrition side of things --- really like it not read too much of it cos of work n stuff but it reads like he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Transk53]

i got the MB dvd --- what an eye opener there's so much that is legal in it compared to the MT i was being taught at fight school where the stuff i was practising was considered illegal.

I take by this you mean what you can use in the ring?

 

[donnaTKD]

yup - i was talking about the points scoring competition side of things in the ring/cage --- not the art where everything and anything more or less goes

it's the art side of it that got my interest cos it seems to be more "fluid" - the moves and forms make sense rather than "kick him/her here and you'll get a point for it" that's being taught and has always been taught in whatever school i've been to.

makes a refreshing change to be doing something different --- think scotty also prefers the art side of it even though we train in a ring most of the time, there's certainly more pads work involved and there's no sparring the training is actually more intense than before it's like everything has kicked on a gear and it's faster and more involving than training for point scoring.

i've had two sessions up to now of this new side of mauy thai boran and for me it feels more comprehensive. the combinations flow better moving from elbows to knee strikes whilst the elbow is still going in on target -- took me while to get to grips with that one you can use a backkick whereas in competition you can't cos you've got to face your target as per boxing (that's what i was always taught) so anything spinning like kicks/elbows/backfist (illegal move in MT competition) there is so much more that you can do that i prefer the art form to competition

 

[Transk53]

yup - i was talking about the points scoring competition side of things in the ring/cage --- not the art where everything and anything more or less goes

it's the art side of it that got my interest cos it seems to be more "fluid" - the moves and forms make sense rather than "kick him/her here and you'll get a point for it" that's being taught and has always been taught in whatever school i've been to.

makes a refreshing change to be doing something different --- think scotty also prefers the art side of it even though we train in a ring most of the time, there's certainly more pads work involved and there's no sparring the training is actually more intense than before it's like everything has kicked on a gear and it's faster and more involving than training for point scoring.

i've had two sessions up to now of this new side of mauy thai boran and for me it feels more comprehensive. the combinations flow better moving from elbows to knee strikes whilst the elbow is still going in on target -- took me while to get to grips with that one you can use a backkick whereas in competition you can't cos you've got to face your target as per boxing (that's what i was always taught) so anything spinning like kicks/elbows/backfist (illegal move in MT competition) there is so much more that you can do that i prefer the art form to competition

That is just so cool, can't think anything else to say

 

[donnaTKD]

think that when you and your mate scott go and have a look you'll be like "i can really do that and no one will shout at me for doing it !!!!"

at CMA i was always getting told no you can't do that when i was doing "spinning" stuff and things and now it's like well if you throw an elbow and for whatever reason you don't connect then you can reverse the elbow into an uppercut elbow and send it back the way it came

honestly the number of moves you can do and the variations that go with them are endless and then on top of those you can add your own tweeks like for instance - your coach throws a front kick (nothing wrong with that), you catch it and drag it through your left side then in the same move you throw a low right kick at their standing leg and when they're falling you throw a left low roundhouse to deliberately hit them in the face which is an illegal move in points scoring muay thai.

the number of moves and things that you can do and not get penalised for are unreal compared to the points scoring muay thai.

 

[Transk53]

think that when you and your mate scott go and have a look you'll be like "i can really do that and no one will shout at me for doing it !!!!"

at CMA i was always getting told no you can't do that when i was doing "spinning" stuff and things and now it's like well if you throw an elbow and for whatever reason you don't connect then you can reverse the elbow into an uppercut elbow and send it back the way it came

honestly the number of moves you can do and the variations that go with them are endless and then on top of those you can add your own tweeks like for instance - your coach throws a front kick (nothing wrong with that), you catch it and drag it through your left side then in the same move you throw a low right kick at their standing leg and when they're falling you throw a left low roundhouse to deliberately hit them in the face which is an illegal move in points scoring muay thai.

the number of moves and things that you can do and not get penalised for are unreal compared to the points scoring muay thai.

Going to be about two weeks, work and what not. Working on my mates elbows at the moment. Funny, at the kick box circuit stuff we have done, elbow seemed to be a rude word

 

[donnaTKD]

muay thai competition stuff is all about boxing from what i've experienced whereas muay boran is about the use and control of everything and compared to competition stuff anything goes.

the use of the elbow in clinches and stuff is in my view a most valuable tool

i kept getting shouted at for doing hip throws and now i find that they're allowed and if i throw one then i get told that it was a good move --- so much is different from the way it's taught to the actual moves and then if you add in a bit of hoodoo voodoo mystical stuff (history of the art) and bit of romanticism for good measure it gives a far more rounded package

also don't expect to be scrapping or sparring --- cos i only train with my coach 1 on 1 --- maybe some schools do spar but i think it's down to the instructor. a lot of the moves you can do by yourself --- there are 30 forms to learn in total but each form flows into the next and so on it's easy to follow, the forms aren't that difficult if you do them slowly and build up the pace as time goes on

 

[Transk53]

muay thai competition stuff is all about boxing from what i've experienced whereas muay boran is about the use and control of everything and compared to competition stuff anything goes.

the use of the elbow in clinches and stuff is in my view a most valuable tool

i kept getting shouted at for doing hip throws and now i find that they're allowed and if i throw one then i get told that it was a good move --- so much is different from the way it's taught to the actual moves and then if you add in a bit of hoodoo voodoo mystical stuff (history of the art) and bit of romanticism for good measure it gives a far more rounded package

also don't expect to be scrapping or sparring --- cos i only train with my coach 1 on 1 --- maybe some schools do spar but i think it's down to the instructor. a lot of the moves you can do by yourself --- there are 30 forms to learn in total but each form flows into the next and so on it's easy to follow, the forms aren't that difficult if you do them slowly and build up the pace as time goes on

Pretty much the same down here. Throughout the week where the MT is, one session a week is sparring and there is a fighters class as there is about a dozen fighters on the gym roster, so no dentist work for me. Not sure how you would incorporate elbows in a clinch though?

 

[donnaTKD]

ever heard of the "knife elbow" --- basically you throw an elbow as per normal but instead of bringing your arm across your body you take it up in a diagonal across their face with a returning single axe elbow to the head for good measure

oughta give em summat to think about --- again these moves are outlawed in MT competition.........

 

[donnaTKD]

the combination for that move is :-

knife elbow, axe elbow followed by knee to the sternum

you just gotta love muay boran

i thought that MT was good but learning the original art of MB is way way better and puts it on another level compared to the competition stuff