Mr. Zhu Huaiyuan - Yang Style Tai Chi (Old Sixth Form)

[windwalker099]

An interesting teacher from the Wang Youngquan line

"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"​

By Tang Fengchi

The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan, Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike). As it is often said, “True mastery lies in understanding Dian-Duan.” The essence of Dian-Duan Jin (Point-Break Energy) is rooted in Shang Shou (a state of mastery in connection and application). However, understanding what constitutes true Shang Shou is both an aspiration that deeply captivates practitioners and a puzzle that leaves many unsure of how to proceed.

The state of Shang Shou is difficult to define—it is at once formless and tangible, elusive and yet discernible, and nearly impossible to articulate fully in words.

Two practitioners may adopt the same posture and appear outwardly similar, but one may have achieved Shang Shou, while the other has not. This difference is subtle and profound."

quite interesting, something I have found to be true...

 

[Appledog]

It's not a problem of understanding the formless yet tangible nature of it, it's a problem of being aware of what it is and that it is even a requirement of taijiquan in the first place. I would in fact not be surprised if there isn't a single person here who was aware of dian duan jin before you posted about it.

It might have something to do with the fact that is is nearly impossible to articulate fully in words. We may need to leave it at that, since it can't be described easily.

 

[windwalker099]

I would in fact not be surprised if there isn't a single person here who was aware of dian duan jin before you posted about it.

It may because it might be considered a specialization within the Wang Yongquan line of Taiji.
The article outlines what it is and how it is used.

The video clip 'Mr. Zhu Huaiyuan - Yang Style Tai Chi (Old Sixth Form)' demonstrates what is called
Old Six Roads (老六路, Lǎo Liù Lù), attributed to Wang Yongquan’s Taiji lineage.
As with many forms, there seem to be variations in outer movements and sequence,
the inner dynamics appear consistent within this line.


"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi
The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan,
Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike).

4. Effortless Connection with the Opponent

When in the state of Shang Shou, there is no internal resistance between oneself and the
opponent. You do not engage in forceful struggle, and the opponent cannot exert their strength
effectively. This is described as

"Piercing the skin without touching the bone, and the skin naturally blocks itself"—this is not a literal piercing but a concept describing how an opponent's force is neutralized before it can be effectively applied."

8. Real and Virtual Contact Points

Real points refer to physical contact where the internal energy connects with the opponent’s
energy. However, the two forces remain distinct, like “well water does not mix with river
water. ” Virtual points, on the other hand, may or may not involve physical contact, but the
connection is established through intent and awareness, allowing the practitioner to control the
opponent’s center of energy (zhong).



Wang Yongquan’s writings explore this idea in depth.
In training, we used three levels—skin, hair, and air—to develop sensitivity and control.
Bone or frame, not normally used, as a part of the training....

 

[isshinryuronin]

It might have something to do with the fact that is is nearly impossible to articulate fully in words. We may need to leave it at that, since it can't be described easily.

Much in MA can be learned and understood only by doing, often for many years.

 

[windwalker099]

Much in MA can be learned and understood only by doing, often for many years.

While this is true, for those at the same level or following similar training paths, conversations can be valuable for sharing experiences, insights, and even videos of noted teachers.
I’ve found that the approach to practice depends on the specific focus of training.

In the taiji world this can be very different,,,

 

[Same Trick]

It’s just about correct timing, so ingrained to one’s core it comes as second nature, all martial arts strive for this, the ways of gaining it may differ from method to method but it’s not a goal unique to one specific method.
Putting words on the goal is not important but rather the road to get there is.
So what specifically is the method of gaining it in the Wang linage of Yang-TJQ

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

An interesting teacher from the Wang Youngquan line

I don't like to watch old people doing Taiji. He might be good in Taiji when he was young. But when he gets old, all the "old man problems" appears. It's so sad to watch.

 

[windwalker099]

It’s just about correct timing, so ingrained to one’s core it comes as second nature, all martial arts strive for this, the ways of gaining it may differ from method to method but it’s not a goal unique to one specific method.

The correct timing of what ?

Putting words on the goal is not important but rather the road to get there is.

"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"​

By Tang Fengchi

The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan, Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike). As it is often said, “True mastery lies in understanding Dian-Duan.” The essence of Dian-Duan Jin (Point-Break Energy) is rooted in Shang Shou (a state of mastery in connection and application). However, understanding what constitutes true Shang Shou is both an aspiration that deeply captivates practitioners and a puzzle that leaves many unsure of how to proceed.

The state of Shang Shou is difficult to define—it is at once formless and tangible, elusive and yet discernible, and nearly impossible to articulate fully in words. So what specifically is the method of gaining it in the Wang linage of Yang-TJQ

Per the article, "Shang Shou" is a state that can be demonstrated through the correct touch by those who have achieved it.
It is not the goal of practice but rather an outcome of it.

The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi: Written by Wei Shuren

What needs special attention here is that beginners tend to focus on the direction of body movements. Because physical movements are visible externally and can be learned through observation and imitation; but the direction of spirit, intention and qi is hidden internally.

Outlines the method of practice
Wang Yongquan, was Wei Shuren's teacher.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't like to watch old people doing Taiji. He might be good in Taiji when he was young. But when he gets old, all the "old man problems" appears. It's so sad to watch.

his son's practice

Yang Style Master Zhu Chunxuan Teaching the Art of Taiji 朱春煊老师传艺

"Zhu Chunxuan (朱春煊) (1939–2022) was a respected master of Yang-style Taijiquan, known for his dedication to preserving and teaching the traditional "Old Yang-style" Taiji. As the son of Zhu Huaiyuan (朱怀元), a prominent disciple of Wang Yongquan (汪永泉), Zhu Chunxuan continued his father's legacy by emphasizing the internal principles and applications of Taijiquan.

Throughout his life, Zhu Chunxuan was committed to sharing his deep understanding of Taiji. He conducted numerous workshops and demonstrations, focusing on the art's internal energy cultivation and practical applications. His teachings have been documented in various videos, capturing his expertise and approach to Taijiquan."

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Zhu Chunxuan (朱春煊) (1939–2022) was a respected master of Yang-style Taijiquan,

If you want to record your form on video, you should record when you are still young. When you get old, your flexibility and balance will get worse. Both are easily to show in your form. You want people to remember you when you are in your prime. You don't want people to remember you when you are old.

 

[windwalker099]

If you want to record your form on video, you should record when you are still young. When you get old, your flexibility and balance will get worse. Both are easily to show in your form. You want people to remember you when you are in your prime. You don't want people to remember you when you are old.

Recording your form at any age has value, not just when you are young. While flexibility and balance may decline with age, experience, refinement, and deeper understanding of the art often improve. A mature practitioner may demonstrate better efficiency, structure, and internal skill rather than just athleticism.

Many legendary masters are remembered not just for their prime years but for the wisdom and skill they displayed in old age.

 

[isshinryuronin]

A mature practitioner may demonstrate better efficiency, structure, and internal skill rather than just athleticism.

experience, refinement, and deeper understanding of the art often improve.

All of these matured elements can not only preserve one's athleticism (along with working out), but on a certain level enhance execution.

The "way" one moves can transcend physical decline from aging to a great degree.

My kicks have slowed but in all other respects my kata is at its highest level ever.

 

[Same Trick]

The correct timing of what ?






Per the article, "Shang Shou" is a state that can be demonstrated through the correct touch by those who have achieved it.
It is not the goal of practice but rather an outcome of it.



Outlines the method of practice
Wang Yongquan, was Wei Shuren's teacher.

You yourself answer the question you ask of me here.



The “understanding the state of “ part isn’t very revealing of anything since it doesn’t put forward any clear explanation on the method to gain understanding, just mentioning that it can only be understood by those who has mastered it - that’s why I say “mentioning about it is meaningless”
The understanding as the goal or an outcome is not so much to argue on, the importance is in how to get there.
The quote of Wei Shuren tells little, but no specifics. Just telling that the body is external and mind and qi internal say what countless of people throughout history has already said

So what exactly is Wang Yongquan’s method to gain it, does it differ from for example Zheng Manqing’s revealings of the method ? If so, in what ways does it differ ?

 

[windwalker099]

You yourself answer the question you ask of me here.

Understanding English is not your first language, and my writing is poor..
Felt it was a straightforward question.

It’s just about correct timing,

Timing of what ?

The answer will help in understanding your reference point.

The understanding as the goal or an outcome is not so much to argue on, the importance is in how to get there.

There is no "there" to get to.

What was mentioned in the article

"Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi"

A part of our practice, although not mentioned directly in our practice.

The quote of Wei Shuren tells little, but no specifics. Just telling that the body is external and mind and qi internal say what countless of people throughout history has already said

Did you read the link provided with the quote?

The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi: Written by Wei Shuren.

It specifically details the training method and how it differs due to its unique focus.
If you're living in China, you might be able to read the original Chinese directly, or perhaps use your browser or Deepseek for translation.

So what exactly is Wang Yongquan’s method to gain it, does it differ from for example Zheng Manqing’s revealings of the method ? If so, in what ways does it differ ?

Interesting question,

Having talked with some of Zheng Manqing's direct students, and trained in the style,
His method seemed to be more physically based, although there are many similarities.
This also depends on the teacher and their focus

Different is different, not anything else...
Level might be a better way of looking at things.



regards

 

[Same Trick]

Understanding English is not your first language, and my writing is poor..
Felt it was a straightforward question.



Timing of what ?

The answer will help in understanding your reference point.




There is no "there" to get to.

What was mentioned in the article



A part of our practice, although not mentioned directly in our practice.



Did you read the link provided with the quote?

The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi: Written by Wei Shuren.

It specifically details the training method and how it differs due to its unique focus.
If you're living in China, you might be able to read the original Chinese directly, or perhaps use your browser or Deepseek for translation.


Interesting question,

Having talked with some of Zheng Manqing's direct students, and trained in the style,
His method seemed to be more physically based, although there are many similarities.
This also depends on the teacher and their focus

Different is different, not anything else...
Level might be a better way of looking at things.



regards

Yes my English is pretty much swenglish.

Anyway- you ask me “timing of what”, and I answered that you yourself has written the answer to that, as you wrote - “ be demonstrated through the correct touch by those who have achieved it.”
This of course tells of correct timing, right ?

You write - “There is no "there" to get to.”
But there is since you wrote - “Shang Shou" is a state that can be demonstrated through the correct touch by those who have achieved it.” - the “there” I interpret as the achievement of the state of “Shang Shou”

Zheng Manqing had specifics on mind activity in solo practice, so my question is in regard of this, the topic headline mentions about a Yang TJQ 6th form, yes the outer form may be different but how about the “inner” methods, do they differ, if so in what way ?

 

[windwalker099]

Zheng Manqing had specifics on mind activity in solo practice, so my question is in regard of this, the topic headline mentions about a Yang TJQ 6th form, yes the outer form may be different but how about the “inner” methods, do they differ, if so in what way ?

With out offering any specifics most, if not all,
questions asked can be answered by the links provided.

 

[Same Trick]

With out offering any specifics most, if not all,
questions asked can be answered by the links provided.

Non of the “Wei Shuren” links open for me, but I’ve seen and experienced some people of that linage, on hands touch I felt noting at all special, but the taiji form looked interesting.

Your linked webpage I can open. And I read your translation of Wang Yongquan’s text, the text mostly talk about imaginary of ones own inner “sphere(s) imagined correctly one can successfully deal with opponents. To my mind, imagining one one’s self doesn’t include the outside, so as an exercise by itself it has nothing to do with martial actions.
But there may be in one single place in the text a hint to the “correct” way of the practice , however in another place it mention “clashing” - which has nothing to do with Taiji.

Anyway - you asked me two times - “The correct timing of what ?”, as your comment on my initial post -

“It’s just about correct timing, so ingrained to one’s core it comes as second nature, all martial arts strive for this, the ways of gaining it may differ from method to method but it’s not a goal unique to one specific method.”

And I answered two times, that your own writing already had answered that.
Not only that but now when I just read your own translation of Wang Yongquan’s text, it mentions -

“In the advanced stage, after long-term practice, one becomes extremely proficient in the techniques of the primary stage, using “listening,” “asking,” “taking,” and “releasing” effortlessly, becoming second nature, forming a conditioned reflex”

So your own translation of Wang Yongquan’s writings that you in this thread linked to held the answer to your question to me.
My post was pretty spot on to that part of the text I think.
Further your text say -

“When encountering situations, without thinking, one responds naturally, like a ping-pong player hitting back a ball or a cyclist controlling the handlebars”

Which continue to agree with the part of my post - that the result/“goal” is not unique to taijiquan, but something that about all methods if mastered arrives at.

 

[Same Trick]

Also, I’ve just watched some videos of Zhu Huaiyuan and his son, and it’s not impressive, it show some basic stuff + some exaggerated responses

​

 

[windwalker099]

Non of the “Wei Shuren” links open for me, but I’ve seen and experienced some people of that linage, on hands touch I felt noting at all special, but the taiji form looked interesting.

Your linked webpage I can open. And I read your translation of Wang Yongquan’s text, the text mostly talk about imaginary of ones own inner “sphere(s) imagined correctly one can successfully deal with opponents. To my mind, imagining one one’s self doesn’t include the outside, so as an exercise by itself it has nothing to do with martial actions.

Understanding it's not your practice.....
It would better if you quoted the text directly.

But there may be in one single place in the text a hint to the “correct” way of the practice , however in another place it mention “clashing” - which has nothing to do with Taiji.

Quote the text....

Anyway - you asked me two times - “The correct timing of what ?”, as your comment on my initial post -

“It’s just about correct timing, so ingrained to one’s core it comes as second nature, all martial arts strive for this, the ways of gaining it may differ from method to method but it’s not a goal unique to one specific method.”

the timing of what ?

" Wei Shuren: Especially in the early stages when one is not able to perceive the direction of spirit, intention and qi, it is indeed not easy to grasp the context of its flow."

The timing I had asked about....

" Wei Shuren: Practitioners of the boxing must follow the instructions of the boxing essentials, and carefully ponder the essentials during repeated practice so as to gradually comprehend the leading role of spirit, intention and Qi, and integrate them increasingly deeply into the boxing movements."

The "what" the timing is based on.

And I answered two times, that your own writing already had answered that.
Not only that but now when I just read your own translation of Wang Yongquan’s text, it mentions -

“In the advanced stage, after long-term practice, one becomes extremely proficient in the techniques of the primary stage, using “listening,” “asking,” “taking,” and “releasing” effortlessly, becoming second nature, forming a conditioned reflex”

So your own translation of Wang Yongquan’s writings that you in this thread linked to held the answer to your question to me.

My post was pretty spot on to that part of the text I think.

Actually it was not,,"spot on", there was no correct or "spot on answer"
The point was allow for an understanding of your view point...

Further your text say -

“When encountering situations, without thinking, one responds naturally, like a ping-pong player hitting back a ball or a cyclist controlling the handlebars”

translation by google...
The text ..."The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi: Written by Wei Shuren"

Which continue to agree with the part of my post - that the result/“goal” is not unique to taijiquan, but something that about all methods if mastered arrives at.

It seems we might be discussing different things.
This thread is focused on what past masters have written about Taiji and its method.
Whether one sees it as unique or not depends on their experience and the level of practitioners they have encountered.

A never-ending journey of refinement rather than a skill with a fixed endpoint.

 

[windwalker099]

Also, I’ve just watched some videos of Zhu Huaiyuan and his son, and it’s not impressive, it show some basic stuff +

Does it need to be impressive ?
Or just a demo of another's work?

some exaggerated responses

if you think so....