More criminals getting choked out by triangles.

[drop bear]

Great video, thanks!

I meant more that I like being more mobile and vertical, and that triangles from guard are more difficult to get back on your feet from in a split second, when compared to reverse triangles. Just my own personal preference, though...

If you couldn't get the sweep. Let go and stand up.

 

[Koshiki]

If you couldn't get the sweep. Let go and stand up.

Not being a ground fighter, I might be using terms incorrectly, but this is more or less what I was meaning by a triangle from guard. I'm saying that say you are the guy in the gi, and realize you need to be vertical ASAP, it's far easier for the guy in the t-shirt to keep you there for a few seconds until your head gets stomped. intentionally or just by struggling out of panic. (Steven something-or-other?)

My point being that, from my personal background of preferring to be on my feet, I am much more capable at getting back n my feet swiftly from a triangle from some form of back control, at east in my experience, more like in this second image.

So yeah, I've probably got the terminology all screwy from a BJJ perspective, but these are the chokes/positions I'm referring to. I feel a heck of a lot safer in the second version, both from the guy getting choked and from anyone else who might be looking for a chance to play kickball with me ol' noggin!

But also, if you've pulled guard, (forgive me if this is a noob question) but how do you just "let go and stand up?" It may be a dominant position especially in a grappling-only rule-set, but for most of us non-grapplers, "letting go and then just standing up" relies either on the guy just letting us through good will, or on otherwise disentangling yourself first, either of which takes valuable seconds...

 

[drop bear]

Not being a ground fighter, I might be using terms incorrectly, but this is more or less what I was meaning by a triangle from guard. I'm saying that say you are the guy in the gi, and realize you need to be vertical ASAP, it's far easier for the guy in the t-shirt to keep you there for a few seconds until your head gets stomped. intentionally or just by struggling out of panic. (Steven something-or-other?)

My point being that, from my personal background of preferring to be on my feet, I am much more capable at getting back n my feet swiftly from a triangle from some form of back control, at east in my experience, more like in this second image.

So yeah, I've probably got the terminology all screwy from a BJJ perspective, but these are the chokes/positions I'm referring to. I feel a heck of a lot safer in the second version, both from the guy getting choked and from anyone else who might be looking for a chance to play kickball with me ol' noggin!

But also, if you've pulled guard, (forgive me if this is a noob question) but how do you just "let go and stand up?" It may be a dominant position especially in a grappling-only rule-set, but for most of us non-grapplers, "letting go and then just standing up" relies either on the guy just letting us through good will, or on otherwise disentangling yourself first, either of which takes valuable seconds...

 

[Koshiki]

In both cases, yes, you can get up swiftly, if the other guy isn't holding on to you.

In the first video, the relevant one with the Triangle, I agree and acknowledge that you can do things from there, including standing up. You, as a grappler, have to know however, that if the other guy holds on, you can't just leap to your feet and be mobile in the fraction of a second you might have to do that, when need calls.

In the second video, he just stands up, yes, but what if the other guy hugged and held on? What if he grabbed his shirt, or shorts, or got grips on his wrists? Perhaps not what a skilled grappler might do, but certainly what a lot of untrained people do on the ground. That's my point.

I agree that from both positions there are things you can do. I'm just saying that leaping to your feet in half a second when his buddy, girlfriend, whoever runs up is frequently not one of them.

Again, my own personal bias, but I prefer not to be in a position where the other guy can, for even one or two seconds, control me and keep me in one place. I'm not saying don't pull Guard, I'm not saying don't go for triangles, I'm saying that in my experience the rear Triangle leaves you more mobile should you need to disengage and leap away, and is therefore, in my view, preferable.

 

[drop bear]

In both cases, yes, you can get up swiftly, if the other guy isn't holding on to you.

In the first video, the relevant one with the Triangle, I agree and acknowledge that you can do things from there, including standing up. You, as a grappler, have to know however, that if the other guy holds on, you can't just leap to your feet and be mobile in the fraction of a second you might have to do that, when need calls.

In the second video, he just stands up, yes, but what if the other guy hugged and held on? What if he grabbed his shirt, or shorts, or got grips on his wrists? Perhaps not what a skilled grappler might do, but certainly what a lot of untrained people do on the ground. That's my point.

I agree that from both positions there are things you can do. I'm just saying that leaping to your feet in half a second when his buddy, girlfriend, whoever runs up is frequently not one of them.

Again, my own personal bias, but I prefer not to be in a position where the other guy can, for even one or two seconds, control me and keep me in one place. I'm not saying don't pull Guard, I'm not saying don't go for triangles, I'm saying that in my experience the rear Triangle leaves you more mobile should you need to disengage and leap away, and is therefore, in my view, preferable.

The other guy is trying to hold you down. He is not going to just let you up regardless. Neither were escapes designed for an unresisting oponant.

If you are saying you would prefer to be knee riding the guys neck than in guard. Well yes that is correct.

 

[Koshiki]

If you are saying you would prefer to be knee riding the guys neck than in guard. Well yes that is correct.

Haha, well yes, I'd have to agree with that, as I'm sure nearly anyone would!

But no, what I keep trying to say, clearly, is specifically about triangle chokes and nothing else!!!

The quintessential triangle, as shown in the first photo I posted, is somewhat limiting to your movement, regardless of whether or not the choke is working out for you.

The rear triangle, as shown in the second photo I posted, is somewhat less limiting to your ability to swiftly disengage.

That's all I'm trying to say. Yes, I agree triangles are effective. However, in terms of self-defense-related mobility, I think some triangles are better options than others. That is literally my entire point.

It's easier to stand up swiftly from the triangle shown in the second photo than it is from that shown in the first. That's literally the only thing I'm trying to say!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But also, if you've pulled guard, (forgive me if this is a noob question) but how do you just "let go and stand up?" It may be a dominant position especially in a grappling-only rule-set, but for most of us non-grapplers, "letting go and then just standing up" relies either on the guy just letting us through good will, or on otherwise disentangling yourself first, either of which takes valuable seconds...

Disengaging in order to stand up is an important skill which requires practice. How hard it is to execute and how long it takes depends a lot on your opponent's skill and actions. My favorite ground position for self-defense is the knee ride, because it's the easiest one to quickly disengage from.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Haha, well yes, I'd have to agree with that, as I'm sure nearly anyone would!

But no, what I keep trying to say, clearly, is specifically about triangle chokes and nothing else!!!

The quintessential triangle, as shown in the first photo I posted, is somewhat limiting to your movement, regardless of whether or not the choke is working out for you.


The rear triangle, as shown in the second photo I posted, is somewhat less limiting to your ability to swiftly disengage.


That's all I'm trying to say. Yes, I agree triangles are effective. However, in terms of self-defense-related mobility, I think some triangles are better options than others. That is literally my entire point.

It's easier to stand up swiftly from the triangle shown in the second photo than it is from that shown in the first. That's literally the only thing I'm trying to say!

The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.

Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.

 

[Koshiki]

The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.

Agreed. Again, from my personal bias and preference and training for stand-up and mobility, ease of disengagement is a much larger factor than it is for a ground fighter, so even a small margin of ease of disengagement, say a half second difference on average, is enough to sway me. This is for all the usual reasons; suddenly realizing the guy you're on the ground with is armed, suddenly realizing he has friends, suddenly realizing your wife is in trouble with said friends 10 feet away, and simply the fact that I suck at ground fighting but am pretty decent at stand-up.

I like to stand up fast, and that has a huge influence on my personal preferences for ground fighting, if I'm forced to be there.

Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.

Completely agreed. I'm just saying that in situations where the rear triangle is available, I like it; but that given situations where the standard is available, I'd generally rather go for something else.

 

[drop bear]

The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.

Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.

Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.

 

[Hanzou]

Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.

The rear Triangle?

Nope. That one comes out of back mount.

 

[Koshiki]

Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.

Well, perhaps there is some wizard out there who can, but as for us mortals, they start in very different places...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.

The rear Triangle?

Nope. That one comes out of back mount.

Well, perhaps there is some wizard out there who can, but as for us mortals, they start in very different places...

Actually, I've been working on an entry to the rear triangle starting from guard lately. I'm a long way from mastering it, but I've pulled it off in rolling a few times.(One time against another black belt, so it wasn't just dumb luck.)

That said, 90-95% of the time the back triangle and the regular triangle do start from different places.

 

[Koshiki]

Actually, I've been working on an entry to the rear triangle starting from guard lately.

If you get it figured out, I'm sure there are many here who would be pretty interested in a video clip, if time and opportunity and desire for filming should come together...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you get it figured out, I'm sure there are many here who would be pretty interested in a video clip, if time and opportunity and desire for filming should come together...

Check out Ryan Hall's Triangle DVD series. It's one of the options he shows for when you have the triangle setup position but your opponent is hiding his arm.

 

[Koshiki]

Cool. I've seen some of his stuff, and it's always of the highest caliber. Thanks!

The way you phrased it, I thought you were referencing a new invention of your own.

 

[Buka]

Zack, I love stand up striking, too. But don't discount striking from that first triangle pic while you're repositioning and scrambling back up. Hooks, elbows and slaps while scrambling work really well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Cool. I've seen some of his stuff, and it's always of the highest caliber. Thanks!

The way you phrased it, I thought you were referencing a new invention of your own.

Nah, if I were that slick I'd be selling my own videos.

 

[Koshiki]

Nah, if I were that slick I'd be selling my own videos.

Might as well do it anyway. My mum got my dad some "street fight self defense" vids when I was a kid. If that guy could get away with the crap he did, I'm sure you could do many times better than him! Just make sure to pose in front of a lot of mildly grungy ally-way brickwork...

Zack, I love stand up striking, too. But don't discount striking from that first triangle pic while you're repositioning and scrambling back up. Hooks, elbows and slaps while scrambling work really well.

Very true. The only reason any of my half-***ed groundwork isn't completely ineffective is because I tend to go all cat-in-the-bath when I'm down there.