Moo Duk Kwan?

[Shinzu]

hey laurie

pyung ahn samdan = hein sandan i shotokan. you shouldnt have any trouble switching styles.

if you want to email me you can get it off my profile. im always up for TSD chat

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Shinzu

im always up for TSD chat

Don't forget that we have an entire Tang Soo Do forum here!

 

[karatekid1975]

Oh yea. I forgot :shrug: Sorry.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by karatekid1975

Oh yea. I forgot :shrug: Sorry.

No worries!

 

[Dim Mak]

Tang Soo Do was one of the generic names used to describe the karate and chuan-fa taught in Korea following WWII. They also used "Kong Soo Do."

There were five major schools of "Tang Soo Do" or "Kong Soo Do," following WWII:

1. Chi Do Kwan
2. Chang Moo Kwan
3. Moo Do Kwan
4. Song Moo Kwan
5. Chung Do Kwan


Sometime later, to gain soom national prestige from their history, someone in Korea decided to call their art Subak Do, which refers to the art practiced by the Hwarang-do "Flowering Youth" from the Silla Dynasty. It may have been Hwang Kee that re-used that name.

Hwang Kee didn't create Tang Soo Do, but was one of the only Korean Masters to resist adopting the name "Taekwondo," and instead kept the name, "Tang Soo Do," to describe his art.

R. McLain

 

[progressivetactics]

Just like the history of Tang Soo Do is completely understood, neither is the Moo Duk Kwan.

Hwang Kee developed the Moo Duk Kwan as his school. Many TSD and TKD still use the term Moo Duk Kwan, even though they are not, nor have ever been affilitated with Hwang Kee's orginization. Even though it originated from the Moo Duk Kwan (school) at one time, and Hwang Kee was the instructor.

Some time ago, there was a controversy about Hwang Kee trying to join the Tae Kwon Do movement in Korea, or them trying to get him to unite with them... EIther way, Around that time, Hwang Kee decided not to join Choi and the others and created Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. Changing Tang Soo Do (the generic name of the system) to its more original style name of Soo Bahk Do, but keeping the Moo Duk Kwan (school) name. To this day, many 'non affiliated schools' (kwans) use the moo duk kwan name, without permission. Tang Soo Do is a non-copywrited name which is free to put on any school, but the Moo Duk Kwan and Soo Bahk Do are actually copywrited.

Some believe it is false advertising to use the moo duk kwan name in TSD or TKD, if your not affiliated with GM Kee. I think the average person wouldn't know. or even care.

 

[Shinzu]

agreed. my school uses MDK because we are directly associated with hwang kee. infact my instructors have their certificates signed by him.

 

[Zepp]

Now, the recent history of TKD and TSD tends to get a bit fuzzy and changes somewhat depending on which artists in which style you ask, but I've read that the Chung Do Kwan (the first kwan to be founded) originally called their style "Tae Soo Do." Most of the masters who went off to found their own kwans studied there under Won Kuk Lee (some after having learned in Okinawa), because it was the only place they could study martial arts legally in Korea during the Japanese occupation (at least, as of 1944 anyways).

Now, I'm curious: I practice the Chung Do Kwan style of TKD, and I've discovered that our forms are very closely related to the forms practiced in TSD (and I know that most of the forms came from Okinawa, though some really originated in China). My question: Did Hwang Kee study at the Chung Do Kwan?

 

[karatekid1975]

My instructor's instructor is Ahn Kyung Won. If you look in the book written by Kang Uk Lee (Tang Soo Do) his name is in there (the Moo Duk Kwan family tree part). His instructor trained under Hwang Kee. How he (Ahn Kyung Won) got to be Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan is beyond me. But we do the Moo Duk Kwan forms at black belt and above (we do Taeguks for color belts).

I thought this was insteresting. I found this out last thursday. I got the student manual tonight and yep, that was in there.

 

[Yossarian75]

Zepp

I believe Tae Soo Do was the name the united Kwans first thought of using for TKD. I have also read that Hwang Kee did indeed train with the Chung Do Kwan(although only an honorary member) as well as a lot of the other Kwans, he was reportedly good friends with some of the Okanawan and Japanese masters like Gogen Miyagi of Goju Ryu.

The TSD forms(bar the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung) are practiced by many different styles of Karate. It would make sense to say that the original Kwan leaders would have learned and taken these forms back from Japan/Okinawa and used them in thier curriculum until they developed thier own. I have seen some of the ITF hyung and they seem to be heavily infuenced by the Pinans/Bassia/Naihanchi etc.

I would be very interested to hear what Hyung you practice, I have heard that Chung do Kwan is very similar to TSD.

 

[Zepp]

Yossarian75,

I actually started a thread on Chung Do Kwan's forms in this forum some time ago. As it turns out, our forms are almost the same as those practiced in TSD. We use different names for some them, there are some differences in the moves, and we have a few less of them, but you'd probably recognize them all.

You definitely know about the Pyong an's. I'm told our white belt forms, Kukmu 1 and 2, were invented by our grandmaster, but they still resemble forms I've seen in TSD. At brown belt ( one less than black) we learn Chul gi 1 and Pal Sek (you call it Bassai?). At first dan, I'm working on Ship su and Chul gi 2. At 2nd dan, there's this cool sword form that no longer has a sword in it we call Yan bi. Sound familiar?

 

[Yossarian75]

Zepp

They are the same hyung and are practiced in the same order and belt level as in my school. Im even working on the same hyung as you at the moment, Sip Soo and Naihanchi e dan. I found Sip Soo quite hard to start with, lots of unfaliliar moves.

Ive not heard of your swordless sword form before, sounds intersting though. We learn a sword form at 2nd dan called Yong Hyung which I believe comes from Kuk Sool Won.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Yossarian75
Ive not heard of your swordless sword form before, sounds intersting though. We learn a sword form at 2nd dan called Yong Hyung which I believe comes from Kuk Sool Won.

Probably variations of the same form. I don't practice that one yet, but since there are some pretty distinct moves, I could tell you if it's the same if I saw a video, or pictures. Maybe I can find some pictures of ours to show you.

Yeah, Sip soo/Ship su can really be a royal *****, can't it? Especially those first moves. I think I'm starting to get it down though.

 

[Shinzu]

sip soo is a bit different, but it's a nice form. some very detailed and complex moves involved.

 

[aricept]

I amalso a practitioner of a style descended from Chung Do Kwan, and know the swordless form you're talking about. We spell it Yun Be, but it's the same thing. The name means "Flying Swallow," or along those lines, for the various dips and the large jump towards the end.

I believe in TSD the form is called either Empi or Wansu, and is a 4th or 5th dan form. The form starts with the right hand closed in a fist chambered at the left hip "holding" a sword, left hand open and placed against the right knuckles.

I don't know that the form was ever actually designed to be a sword form, though; at least, I can find no mention of it dating back to Okinawa when it came from China. The applications for a sword are definitely there, though.

Nathan

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by aricept
I amalso a practitioner of a style descended from Chung Do Kwan, and know the swordless form you're talking about. We spell it Yun Be, but it's the same thing. The name means "Flying Swallow," or along those lines, for the various dips and the large jump towards the end.

I believe in TSD the form is called either Empi or Wansu, and is a 4th or 5th dan form. The form starts with the right hand closed in a fist chambered at the left hip "holding" a sword, left hand open and placed against the right knuckles.

That's the one. For us it's a 2nd dan form. When finally I learn it, I'd like to try it with a fencing sabre or something and see if it's really applicable to using a sword. But I've got other things to focus on in my training before then.

aricept,
What's the name of your style?

 

[Yossarian75]

Ah I know of Wansu or Wangshu as we call it, we learn that at third or fourth dan i think. Our sword forms are very different to Wangshu, Yong Hyung opens with three horizontal slashes each one lower than the last until you are crouching. Do you practice weapons in Chung Do Kwan? TSD generally has Bong and Sword Hyung(depending on the association) we practice Nunchuka and Knife also, great fun.

 

[Zepp]

No, I'm afraid we don't train with weapons in Chung Do Kwan. At least, it's not part of the usual training. There may be groups of us that do somewhere out there.

I've found that FMA complement our style quite nicely though.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

Heres a lil history paper I wrote a while back ago , you guys might like :


Tang Soo Do :
The Truth
By David E. Somers

Ever since I was a Teenager when I bought a Shotokan
book I have noticed a striking simialarity between the
Kata of Shotokan , and the Tang Soo Do Hyung . That book
has lead me into much confusion at first , but has lead
me to the research of this article .

The True Founder of Tang Soo Do :
The name Tang Soo Do was first used in Korea by Chung Do
Kwan founder Won Kuk Lee , who studied with Shotokan
founder Gichin Funakoshi . Hwang Kee didnt use the name till
a few years later .


Grandmaster Hwang Kee was born
on Nov.9 , 1914 , and was given the birth name of Tae Nam ,
which means Star Boy . We have heard that he mastered Tae Kyon
& Subahk at an early age , but has never trained in either
one of these arts under any instructor . As a young boy
Kee seen several thugs trying to jump a man , who used
Tae Kyon to defend himself , he later approached this man ,
requesting to train with him , and was turned away , because
of his young age . So Hwang spied on him , to learn his
tae Kyon methods , and there is no record of him training in
Subahk , which was a form of wrestling taught to the Hwa Rang .
I have never seen any type of wrestling in Tang Soo Do .

So where did he get those forms from ?
He did train with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee Won kuk for a
short time , but no one really knows for how long or if any
rank was ever awarded to him , but there is a rumor that he
recieved a 6th gup from Lee Won Kuk ; But , he also states that
he learned Okinawan Karate from books , while working at the
railroad in Manchuria .

The Tang Method:
So what is it ? Where did he learn it , and from whom ?
Hwang Kee's only real training took place when he went to
Manchuria in 1936 for a period of a year , where he studied
Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan under Yang Kuk Jin , he then returned
to korea in 1937 . He did return for a short visit in 1941
for a short time , less then a year .

The Moo Duk kwan :
In 1945 Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan ( Meaning : Institute of
Martial Virtue ) originally calling the art he taught Hwa Soo Do ,
meaning flowering hand way , but he had to close his Dojang twice ,
due to the fact that he could not get any student's to train ,
because no one knew what Hwa Soo Do was .

It wasnt till he met with Won Kuk Lee
& Chan Sang Sup ( Ji Do Kwan ) , in 1947 , when they suggested
that he should use the term Tang Soo Do , and at that point
it was then that he would begin to have a following ; and
in September 1953 Hwang Kee formed the Korea Tang Soo Do
Association . Then in December 1953 , tried to join the
Korean Athletic Association , but was unsuccessful .
Then in June 1960 The Korea Tang Soo Do association was
renamed The Korea Soo Bahk Do Association .

The Split :
In March 1965 , The korea Soo Bahk Do Association attempted
to join The Korea Tae Kwon Do Association , but was unsuccessful .
After this happened a large majority had left Hwang kee's
leadership , and joined the Korea Tae Kwon Do Association.
In April of 1965 the Moo Duk Kwan was finally accepted ,
and Kang Ik Lee became the President of The Tae Kwon Do
Moo Duk Kwan .Then Chong Soo Hong became president , followed
by In Seok Kim , then Nam Do Choi . The Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk
Kwan was further divided when Chong Soo Hong broke off ,
and created the Moo Duk Hae , and Chun Jae Kyu became it's
second president .

The new forms :
It wasnt untill 1957 , that Kee found a copy of the
classical Military text , The Moo Yea Dobo Tongji ,
and began translating it , then in the 1970's he began
creating the Chil Sung Hyung's , Hwa Sun , and later
the Yuk Ro's with what he learned in this book , and
the Yang style Tai Chi Chuan that he had learned from
Yang Kuk Jin years earlier .

The formation of Soo Bahk Do :
Due to the fact that several of Hwang Kee's senior students
broke off , and created their own associations , The United
States Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation officially changed
their name to The United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan
Federation on the date of August 3 , 1996 to seperate itself
from other Tang Soo Do organizations .


On Sat July 13th , 2002 Grandmaster Hwang Kee passed away ,
leaving his system to his son Master H.C.Hwang . He has influenced
thousands , if not millions of people in the martial arts .
It was a tragic day in to the followers of his art , and a loss
felt by many people the world over , but his art will be
passed on by many of his followers as a reminder of his mark on
this world .

 

[aricept]

Originally posted by Zepp
That's the one. For us it's a 2nd dan form. When finally I learn it, I'd like to try it with a fencing sabre or something and see if it's really applicable to using a sword. But I've got other things to focus on in my training before then.

aricept,
What's the name of your style?

I was offered the chance to learn it to test for my 1st dan, but chose another form instead - I'll wait on the jump.

Style name? I would respond Chung Do Kwan. We can trace our roots back to Jhoon Rhee - the man we consider the "founder" of our style was the American who brought Rhee to the states, Atlee Chittim. We call him the founder because when Rhee switched to the ITF, Chittim continued to do what he was originally taught.

We've also borrowed a couple of forms from close association with other styles. For instance, Chittim was close with Robert Trias, so we do a version of the Goju-Shorei form Gopaisho. So we aren't really "pure" Chung Do Kwan.