Modification to Chen Man Ching's Tai Chi Form

[East Winds]

Marlon,

It is only recently that the Yang family have finally acknowledged the existance of Cheng Man-ching. It is said that until about 5 years ago, if you mentioned CMC to them, they would just blank you.

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

Marlon,

It is only recently that the Yang family have finally acknowledged the existance of Cheng Man-ching. It is said that until about 5 years ago, if you mentioned CMC to them, they would just blank you.

Very best wishes

Thanks, that is ...intersting. He seems to have been a very well educated and knowledgeable man. a scholar , calligrapher, poet doctor, and an impressive thinker. Does anyone dispute that he was a legitimate taiji master? As for the form is taiji based on the form or taught through the form? What of the 13 original postures....Chen and Yang are very different in many respects so aside from a competent teacher what makes taiji , taiji? Does CMC's changes conform to the classics? What makes changing the form acceptable, and by whom?

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

Nope

You seem very sure but i thought that he mentioned somewhere that he at least discussed the changes with Yang Cheng fu...i assumed that meant they were approved but i see that i could easily be making wrong assumptions or being led to even.Did he make these changes while Yang Cheng fu was alive?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

You seem very sure but i thought that he mentioned somewhere that he at least discussed the changes with Yang Cheng fu...i assumed that meant they were approved but i see that i could easily be making wrong assumptions or being led to even.Did he make these changes while Yang Cheng fu was alive?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Yang Chengfu (1883 -1936),
Cheng Manching (1901 or 02 -1975)

Cheng Manching studied Tai Chi with Yang Chengfu from 1928 to 1935. Cheng allegedly ghost-wrote Yang Chengfu’s book "Tai chi Chuan Tiyung chuan-shu”, published in 1934.

Yang Changeful died in 1936. I doubt they were having discussions about changes to Yang style then. Chengfu was discussing additions to the Yang family Taiji, meaning an additional form but not changes to existing forms. I have also read nothing that says Chengfu approved Cheng’s changes.

By 1945 or 46 I believe Cheng had pretty much developed his style, he began teaching in Taiwan in 49 or 50.

I find it highly unlikely Chengfu approved such changes since they are major bigtime fundamental changes to Yang style, which I am pretty sure Chengfu would not approve. The Yang family until recently never even acknowledged it as tai chi and when they finally did they said it is not Yang style. This also says not an approved change. Unless it is discussed and approved by a Yang family member it is not Yang style.

Tung Ying Chieh (1898-1961) taught Yang style and he designed forms after Chengfu's death that he called Tung style and it appears the Yang family has never had a problem with this. I also do not beleive the Yang family would have had a problem with Cheng Manching style if he had called it that and not called it Yang style.

 

[marlon]

Yang Chengfu (1883 -1936),
Cheng Manching (1901 or 02 -1975)

Cheng Manching studied Tai Chi with Yang Chengfu from 1928 to 1935. Cheng allegedly ghost-wrote Yang Chengfu’s book "Tai chi Chuan Tiyung chuan-shu”, published in 1934.

Yang Changeful died in 1936. I doubt they were having discussions about changes to Yang style then. Chengfu was discussing additions to the Yang family Taiji, meaning an additional form but not changes to existing forms. I have also read nothing that says Chengfu approved Cheng’s changes.

By 1945 or 46 I believe Cheng had pretty much developed his style, he began teaching in Taiwan in 49 or 50.

I find it highly unlikely Chengfu approved such changes since they are major bigtime fundamental changes to Yang style, which I am pretty sure Chengfu would not approve. The Yang family until recently never even acknowledged it as tai chi and when they finally did they said it is not Yang style. This also says not an approved change. Unless it is discussed and approved by a Yang family member it is not Yang style.

Tung Ying Chieh (1898-1961) taught Yang style and he designed forms after Chengfu's death that he called Tung style and it appears the Yang family has never had a problem with this. I also do not beleive the Yang family would have had a problem with Cheng Manching style if he had called it that and not called it Yang style.

i see your point. It was my impression that he called it Yang style out of respect for his teacher and not to capitalize on the name. Was Yang style that popular back then that he would want to do this? In any case i like both sytle with my limited knowlegde they both seem to be true taiji systems.

Respectfully,
Marlon
p.s. Have you heard any dispute over Cheng Man ching's legitimacy as a taiji master? Or any of his students being sub par due to his revisions in the form?

 

[marlon]

Yang Chengfu (1883 -1936),
Cheng Manching (1901 or 02 -1975)

Cheng Manching studied Tai Chi with Yang Chengfu from 1928 to 1935. Cheng allegedly ghost-wrote Yang Chengfu’s book "Tai chi Chuan Tiyung chuan-shu”, published in 1934.

Yang Changeful died in 1936. I doubt they were having discussions about changes to Yang style then. Chengfu was discussing additions to the Yang family Taiji, meaning an additional form but not changes to existing forms. I have also read nothing that says Chengfu approved Cheng’s changes.

By 1945 or 46 I believe Cheng had pretty much developed his style, he began teaching in Taiwan in 49 or 50.

I find it highly unlikely Chengfu approved such changes since they are major bigtime fundamental changes to Yang style, which I am pretty sure Chengfu would not approve. The Yang family until recently never even acknowledged it as tai chi and when they finally did they said it is not Yang style. This also says not an approved change. Unless it is discussed and approved by a Yang family member it is not Yang style.



Why did they say it was not taiji?

Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why did they say it was not taiji?

Marlon

They did not say it was not Taiji and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. They just did not acknowledge it at all, they pretty much ignored it. They did much later, rather recently actually, call it Cheng Manching Taiji. I believe it was Yang Zhandou that made this distinction and made it clear that it was not Yang style taiji.

I believe this had to do with a few different things. First it is fundamentally different. Second the Yang family I feel is trying to regain control of the style. Currently it is very difficult to disprove many false lineage claims and if you add Cheng Manching style to it becomes impossible. Also I believe there is a bit of old fashion politics going on. But these are just speculations on my part

I would be very interested in what Yang Chengfu thought about it, but I seriously doubt I will ever know what his thoughts on it are.

 

[marlon]

thanks for the clarification. What do you feel constitues taiji, the form or the principles? Does cmc style hold enough to the principles to be called taiji. chen style is very different from yang and both are taiji...does the form itself define yang style? Was Cheng Manching a legitimate taiji master and what constitues one?

wow i am full of questions, apologizes

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

thanks for the clarification. What do you feel constitues taiji, the form or the principles? Does cmc style hold enough to the principles to be called taiji. chen style is very different from yang and both are taiji...does the form itself define yang style? Was Cheng Manching a legitimate taiji master and what constitues one?

wow i am full of questions, apologizes

Respectfully,
marlon

I would call CMC Taiji any day, actually I like Cheng Manching Tai Chi. I did it for a very brief period of time. The only thing that did not make sense to me, coming from a traditional Yang style background was the push hands. They were using the front foot much more than the back. But it seemed to work for the Sifu with no problem; I just couldn’t get the hang of it. I stopped because there is only so much time in a day and I could not train that with everything else.

Chen is the root family of today’s Tai Chi and Yang style comes from Chen. But they called it Yang they did not try and continue to call it Chen. I think that is were the problem comes in for CMC. Many of its practitioners call it Yang style or Yang style from Cheng Manching and since it is very likely it was not approved by the Yang family and it looks very different form Yang style many Traditional Yang stylists do not consider it Yang and the Yang family has made it clear it is not Yang style. IF Cheng called it Cheng Manching Tai Chi in the first place I do not think there would be an issue at all.

And I do think Cheng is a master of his style, but I have talked to some who would not agree, but it is more up to you and how you feel about your chosen style no matter what it is. If your happy withit, who cares what anyone else thinks.

Also I have read a couple of Cheng's books but they are very good and I generally recommend them to any Tai Chi person of any style.

 

[marlon]

Thanks XS,
i appreciate your responses very much. Until i find a cmc teacher i am learning the Yang form. What does it mean that someone is a taiji master. what does this entail?

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks XS,
i appreciate your responses very much. Until i find a cmc teacher i am learning the Yang form. What does it mean that someone is a taiji master. what does this entail?

Respectfully,
marlon

What makes a master?

Good question, I don’t know really.

I would call my Sifu a master but I doubt he would ever call himself one and I know I’m not one.

I guess in the case of Cheng Manching I would say he has a deep understanding of his art and he is very skilled in its application. The same would also go for Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu or Chen Xiaowang or Chen Zhenglei or Yang Zhendao, etc. But to me for the most part it is a label that is generally applied to a teacher by someone else.

I have had the opportunity to talk to a few I would consider a master and all but one used their first name. And the one used the title Doctor before his last name. None asked to be called master nor did they refer to themselves as such.

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

My teacher who comes from the US to teach here in the UK is an undoubted Master, but prefers to be called "Coach" (jiao lian). Although he does not mind students calling him by his first name. There are too many "Masters" out there who do not deserve the title.

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

agreed, my teacher also calls himself my coach although i use a title when addressing him. My question was more to content than titles as titles can be acquired anywhere by anyone...sadly

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

This has been posted before but here it is again

A COMPARATIVE STUDY
BETWEEN TRADITIONAL YANG STYLE OF YANG CHENGFU
AND CHENG MAN
CHING'S STYLE.
http://sataichi.com/compare.html​

Also more here
http://www.longfei-taiji.co.uk/news/vol3iss3/yang.htm​

I am looking for the statement that Yang Zhendou made about CMC and when I find it I will post it

 

[grappling_mandala]

I came to the conclusion today after staring at various geometric forms and mandalas it doned on me. I been drawing overlays on gym photos for years, looking at various angles, meditating on the mandalinguistic nature of what happens in the moment... So.... I been going back and forth looking at ycf's and cmc form ... I think the "filled out" look of the ycf form is because of an embodiment of the golden proportion. The asthetic "value" we find in art and movement. Plain and Simple. TCF appears to be more proportionally harmonic. I wish we had video of him moving, but am thankful we have the photos we do. Some more food for thought...

GM

 

[East Winds]

grappling mandala,

Interesting take on the subject and one I must admit I hadn't taken into consideration when comapring YCF and CMC. I think there may some mileage in your reasoning and it is clearly an aspect that CMC had not considered when he changed the postures and alignmets of his form.

Thanks for the input

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

grappling mandala,

Interesting take on the subject and one I must admit I hadn't taken into consideration when comapring YCF and CMC. I think there may some mileage in your reasoning and it is clearly an aspect that CMC had not considered when he changed the postures and alignmets of his form.

Thanks for the input

Very best wishes

I have trained Yang Style for a long time and I only trained Cheng Manching style for a couple of months and what I trained I liked but it was decidedly not the same. The alignments where not the same the movements were not the same and the internal feel was not the same.

In some cases the transitions were easier in others they seemed more awkward.

And I have great respect for CMC and I have had a chance to train, briefly, with CC Chen and there is no doubt that Chen is a fighter but to me CMC seemed more geared towards health. Meaning that if you do not do the martial applications of it you will get greater health benefit than if you omit the martial side of traditional Yang style.

And if you compare the forms they must be compared 3 dimensionally because where Chengfu has a longer/lower stance Manching has a wide/higher stance to compensate.

I am not exactly sure what all this means in actual benefit, I simply did not trained CMC long enough to understand it.

However I do thing that grappling_mandala has made a good point and giving me something to think about in comparing the two styles

 

[marlon]

I came to the conclusion today after staring at various geometric forms and mandalas it doned on me. I been drawing overlays on gym photos for years, looking at various angles, meditating on the mandalinguistic nature of what happens in the moment... So.... I been going back and forth looking at ycf's and cmc form ... I think the "filled out" look of the ycf form is because of an embodiment of the golden proportion. The asthetic "value" we find in art and movement. Plain and Simple. TCF appears to be more proportionally harmonic. I wish we had video of him moving, but am thankful we have the photos we do. Some more food for thought...

GM

Excuse me what is the golden proportion?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

Have a look at this link.

http://www.heartbeat2000.com/phi.htm

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

thank you, to come to this conclusion you must accept that YCF's version of Yang style as apriori. However, historically it is not. Since he has become the standard and everyone in the yang family holds him as the standard then there is a certain bias when looking at his form. If we take the T'ai ch'i classics as the basis for understanding then can we still make the same comment of him?

i am knew and know very little but these are my thouhgts

Respectfully,
Marlon