MMA Rules: More restrictive than people think?

[neoinarien]

As I understand it the extent of rules in most MMA (UFC, etc) are:

No eye gouging
No groin shots
No biting
(in UFC, no kicking an opponent when down)

So why not more pressure point attacks, etc?

Are there any other rules/restrictions?

 

[D Dempsey]

How is that restrictive? You have to place the safety of the fighters first or you won't have anyone competing and the sport would still have the stigma of being a blood bath.
Here is the complete listing of fouls for the UFC:
from www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation (fingers).
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

As you can see there is nothing specifically mentioning pressure point attacks.
Obviously some organizations have different rules, but most are pretty similar to these.

 

[Andrew Green]

As I understand it the extent of rules in most MMA (UFC, etc) are:

No eye gouging
No groin shots
No biting
(in UFC, no kicking an opponent when down)

So why not more pressure point attacks, etc?

Are there any other rules/restrictions?

Those where the rules in the beginning, when it wasn't a sanctioned sport. There was also no weight classes, and even no time limits or rounds for a little while.

Since then things have evolved. There are more rules, as mentioned above. But some things never got much use, simply because in that environment they don't work. Pressure points being in that category, there is a rule against there use now, but I don't think its ever been enforced or that anyone would change anything if it got lifted.

 

[D Dempsey]

Pressure points being in that category, there is a rule against there use now, but I don't think its ever been enforced or that anyone would change anything if it got lifted.

No there isn't, what I posted was a full listing of fouls from the UFC. I might be banned in some other organization but I can't say for sure.

 

[Tez3]

Pressure points are allowed just difficult to use in MMA fights. Why that is is probably another discussion. I have a feeling we covered that not so long ago on here?

 

[Nolerama]

I'd love to see a fighter take his sweet time to remove his mouth guard, and try to bite someone... Then get his face elbowed for the sorry attempt.

What's worse is putting that mouth guard back into his mouth after dropping it...

 

[neoinarien]

How is that restrictive? You have to place the safety of the fighters first or you won't have anyone competing and the sport would still have the stigma of being a blood bath. (D Dempsey)

I think it's self-evident how that is restrictive: it literally restricts the fighters from engaging in certain techniques.

Now, maybe you meant to say, "How is that too restrictive?" This is a different point entirely, and one I would agree with (the rules are not too restrictive).

Thank you for the rules Dempsey! I've been wondering about this.

 

[Andrew Green]

No there isn't, what I posted was a full listing of fouls from the UFC. I might be banned in some other organization but I can't say for sure.

My mistake, I'm quite sure they did have a rule against it at one point.

 

[thetruth]

I'm positive pressure points have come into play in MMA. Who is to say that out of all of the KO's that none were due to pressure points being hit and not just the force of the blow? Having said that, it is impractical to teach pressure points and try to alter strikes to make them target pressure points more. People tend to have the likes of Dillman and kyusho international in their heads when discussing pressure points. This type of pressure point practice has no place in MMA and would only hinder a fighter rather than help. I am an advocate of just saying pressure points exist and if you are able to strike the jaw or whereever cleanly then thats great but you should never be able to tell if the PP have caused the damage or whether the force of the strike did.

I got kicked out of the kyusho international forum for putting forward my opinions on this (PP and MMA) as they just want people who will bow to the way they do things and not question what they do.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Tez3]

I'm positive pressure points have come into play in MMA. Who is to say that out of all of the KO's that none were due to pressure points being hit and not just the force of the blow? Having said that, it is impractical to teach pressure points and try to alter strikes to make them target pressure points more. People tend to have the likes of Dillman and kyusho international in their heads when discussing pressure points. This type of pressure point practice has no place in MMA and would only hinder a fighter rather than help. I am an advocate of just saying pressure points exist and if you are able to strike the jaw or whereever cleanly then thats great but you should never be able to tell if the PP have caused the damage or whether the force of the strike did.

I got kicked out of the kyusho international forum for putting forward my opinions on this (PP and MMA) as they just want people who will bow to the way they do things and not question what they do.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I agree with this, a well thought out post. I also agree with D Dempsey's points and I'm sure he posted exactly what he meant.
To be honest I don't understand the OP point, I don't understand what can be too restrictive about rules for a competition. We have rules that enable fighters to compete within certain parameters so they know and understand their safety is paramount. If they know how to use pressure points and are able to use them in a fight good for them, if they don't well that's no problem either. It's not a big deal.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Rules are meant there for safety issues as well as other factors.
MMA competition is a sport it is not the street nor tries to be the street for obvious reasons. This is not to say MMA practicers do not train in the banned techniques or pressure pointing it simply means in the ring you follow the rules same as in any other sport.

If only they changed the rules of Basketball to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O1Gm6NmvZM&feature=related

 

[punisher73]

Not sure either. You can still do ALOT of things in the ring. Now if they had a rule that said you can only stand on one leg when you punch, then that would be restrictive.

I had heard that when the first UFC's were done, there were other rules that weren't publicized, like the use of pressure points, but don't know if that is just urban legend or not.

People also need to define what EXACTLY they mean by "pressure points". Are you referring ONLY to accupuncture points? Or do you also mean the "vital spots" (atemi striking) that include targets like the temple, solar plexus, etc.

To see a good use of a vital spot strike, look at the Robbie Lawler vs. Tiki fight in the UFC. Lawler misses with a hook punch and hits Tiki on the side of the neck with his forearm. In law enforcement, it is known as a brachial plexus stun. In PP it would be considered ST-9. So you can use those types of things to some degree, but it is more of an "added bonus". But, in the UFC a strike to that area is against the rules.

I know of an MMA fighter who is also an LEO and when he did some training with us in DT class, he talked about using certain pressure points while on the ground grappling to cause pain and get better positioning. He even commented on how most fighters aren't aware of them and don't use them to their advanatage.

 

[Tez3]

Not sure either. You can still do ALOT of things in the ring. Now if they had a rule that said you can only stand on one leg when you punch, then that would be restrictive.

I had heard that when the first UFC's were done, there were other rules that weren't publicized, like the use of pressure points, but don't know if that is just urban legend or not.

People also need to define what EXACTLY they mean by "pressure points". Are you referring ONLY to accupuncture points? Or do you also mean the "vital spots" (atemi striking) that include targets like the temple, solar plexus, etc.

To see a good use of a vital spot strike, look at the Robbie Lawler vs. Tiki fight in the UFC. Lawler misses with a hook punch and hits Tiki on the side of the neck with his forearm. In law enforcement, it is known as a brachial plexus stun. In PP it would be considered ST-9. So you can use those types of things to some degree, but it is more of an "added bonus". But, in the UFC a strike to that area is against the rules.

I know of an MMA fighter who is also an LEO and when he did some training with us in DT class, he talked about using certain pressure points while on the ground grappling to cause pain and get better positioning. He even commented on how most fighters aren't aware of them and don't use them to their advanatage.

It must only be UFC rules, the only place strikes are illegal on other promotions is to the spine and back of the neck. Having said that though a hit to the side of the neck would probably be accidental, it's not such a good target to hit when competively fighting. I agree it would be a bonus if you got it.

 

[punisher73]

It must only be UFC rules, the only place strikes are illegal on other promotions is to the spine and back of the neck. Having said that though a hit to the side of the neck would probably be accidental, it's not such a good target to hit when competively fighting. I agree it would be a bonus if you got it.

I guess the specific rule is "throat strikes" so I'm not sure if striking the neck area in general would be against the rules. In this case it was accidental (missed hook punch) and not something that was targeted.

 

[Tez3]

I guess the specific rule is "throat strikes" so I'm not sure if striking the neck area in general would be against the rules. In this case it was accidental (missed hook punch) and not something that was targeted.

I think probably a strike to the throat would be fairly difficult as well to be honest when the fights between two pro fighters. One of the reasons that pro fighters don't use a lot of martial arts techniques that others think they should is that in a ring/cage it's a lot more diffucult than you would imagine. It's why tried and tested techniques tend to be kept to and why criticisms are easy to make.
Many years ago I went to watch my first karate kumite competition, I thought I would see all the techniques we'd done in training and was disppointed to see that everyone kept to the basic movements, there were no flying spinning roundhouse kicks or double front kicks just workmanlike kicks and punches! The thing was these work!
An MMA fight is as Ian "The Machine" Freeman likes to say a game of physical chess, you try to out manouvre your opponent, you stay a couple of moves ahead of him, it's not just a case of meeting in the middle of the cage or ring and firing off random shots. You try a move knowing it will cause him to move a certain way so you can do a certain technique, he will of course be trying to out think you. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple too and not complicating things by trying to get pressure points, as has been said if you get one it's a bonus but it's best to stick to what you know works!

 

[Dave Leverich]

To respond to the OP's question of why aren't more pressure points used:
I think the reason we don't see more is that some just don't work in that set of circumstances (whether it is due to equipment/gloves, circumstance - sweat etc), some work but aren't allowed (illegal targets), and some is simply due to the lack of knowledge of the techniques.

I actually use some and they work well; IE. head & arm in side mount and you pressure the brachial plexus with your fist, tap in 2.

I've done quite a bit of pressure point work and am continually looking for other ones to implement. The real trick is finding which ones you can 'hold' on people while in a position.

 

[punisher73]

I think probably a strike to the throat would be fairly difficult as well to be honest when the fights between two pro fighters. One of the reasons that pro fighters don't use a lot of martial arts techniques that others think they should is that in a ring/cage it's a lot more diffucult than you would imagine. It's why tried and tested techniques tend to be kept to and why criticisms are easy to make.
Many years ago I went to watch my first karate kumite competition, I thought I would see all the techniques we'd done in training and was disppointed to see that everyone kept to the basic movements, there were no flying spinning roundhouse kicks or double front kicks just workmanlike kicks and punches! The thing was these work!
An MMA fight is as Ian "The Machine" Freeman likes to say a game of physical chess, you try to out manouvre your opponent, you stay a couple of moves ahead of him, it's not just a case of meeting in the middle of the cage or ring and firing off random shots. You try a move knowing it will cause him to move a certain way so you can do a certain technique, he will of course be trying to out think you. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple too and not complicating things by trying to get pressure points, as has been said if you get one it's a bonus but it's best to stick to what you know works!

I agree. I have always thought that the higher the skill level of the two combatants, the more basic it will look. If you have a lot higher level skill than your opponent you have more tools and options to control without having to seriously hurt them. I read this quote from another website and I can't remember where so I apologize that I can't give proper credit.

You focus more on cardio and less on new technique when preparing for a fight. If we always trained the way we prepare for a fight, we'd be focusing only on our bread n' butter technique and wouldn't have time to relax, experiment, and grow as a fighter/martial artist.

I think that is especially true in MMA. If you are constantly preparing for a fight you aren't spending alot of time to increase your toolbox and incorporate new things. You tend to really stick with the basics, but that doesn't mean that other things aren't effective it just means that they aren't bread and butter moves or they are a low percentage against another highly trained fighter.

 

[DavidCC]

How would you enforce it if they were illegal??

BREAK! 1 point deduction from Ortiz for striking on Liver 14!

 

[Tez3]

How would you enforce it if they were illegal??

BREAK! 1 point deduction from Ortiz for striking on Liver 14!

The same way you deal with any illegal move!

 

[Skpotamus]

One of Dillman's black belts fought in the UFC at one point. Ryan Parker, UFC 7. He came it at 235, got tied up and pushed into the cage while trying for pressure points in the neck. Then got thrown and mounted. He kept up his pressure poitn attacks to the neck, armpit and ribs, then got pounded into hamburger before getting choked by a forearm across his throat.


Out of curiousity, does the original poster (or anyone) practice biting, eye gouging, groin striking, and all the other illegal UFC techniques while training full force? If so, how many training partners have you killed and maimed?

Yes, self defense is different from MMA competition. For SD I teach my students to eye gouge, groin strike, even bite if the situation calls for it, and teach them how to simulate those actions safely while sparring and drilling, but you can never go full speed on them.

MMA is a sport with a lot of benefits to realistic training practices, either watch it and enjoy it, watch it and learn from it, or don't watch it.