MMA and Kata
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tarabos
2nd Black Belt
it's opinion based really...but it comes down to this.
i believe the thinking is that maybe kata doesn't make you any worse of a fighter...but it probably isn't going to make you any better...so why waste time on it? especially when you're dealing with sport oriented fighting. the best practice for a sport is to play the sport, to work on things that will actually occur in the sport.
now, looking at it from a less biased point of view, there's plenty of people who can go on and on in this forum about the benefits of kata. modern day training however just doesn't call for it as much with regards to effective fighting technique. also, i'd be willing to bet that the percentage of people in the world, especially in the U.S., that can teach kata correctly (teching the true meaning and application of the kata and really helping someone to understand it).
eh...what do i know?
i believe the thinking is that maybe kata doesn't make you any worse of a fighter...but it probably isn't going to make you any better...so why waste time on it? especially when you're dealing with sport oriented fighting. the best practice for a sport is to play the sport, to work on things that will actually occur in the sport.
now, looking at it from a less biased point of view, there's plenty of people who can go on and on in this forum about the benefits of kata. modern day training however just doesn't call for it as much with regards to effective fighting technique. also, i'd be willing to bet that the percentage of people in the world, especially in the U.S., that can teach kata correctly (teching the true meaning and application of the kata and really helping someone to understand it).
eh...what do i know?
E
Elfan
Guest
In my opinion, kata/forms are useful ways to practice your skills.
The strong anti-kata sentiment you preceive is probably due to what the MMA crowd preceives as an overuse of memorized drills or paterns.
Of cource there are those who will say that all memorized paterns are bad or that those who don't use any them will have have poor skills.
Does that help? They certainly havn't been "proven" to be detrimental to training.
The strong anti-kata sentiment you preceive is probably due to what the MMA crowd preceives as an overuse of memorized drills or paterns.
Of cource there are those who will say that all memorized paterns are bad or that those who don't use any them will have have poor skills.
Does that help? They certainly havn't been "proven" to be detrimental to training.
J
JDenz
Guest
i would have to say that most MMA pepole think Kata is a waste of time. There is only so many hours to train i think most guys that are fghting or training mma don't need to waste time learning an abstract form when they are spending hours to find what level to throw a knee at in a clinch or taking a small movement out of there arm bar.
white belt
Brown Belt
A lot of good points have been made. In one of the Pride tournaments, Kazushi Sakuraba beat Renzo Gracie by dislocating his arm in a Kimura lock. That same lock, applied to an opponent from the rear, is in the TKD form Kumgang. No one I have trained with had seen this until I pointed it out. Now what are the chances that a MMA practicioner could see this while watching me do the form solo? No disrespect to any MMA art people, but, probably not many if any would. It would probably look like some silly wiggling around to me too(!) if not for my own personal experience.
Because of the heated struggle of Renzo, Sakuraba was forced to apply a dangerous amount of pressure on his arm. Both lost their balance and Renzo's arm caught their weight. A sporting lock accidentally turned into something that was originally meant for the street. By allowing his body to turn into Renzo's arm, we got to see what the real life result could be from a form / kata if malicious non-sporting intent were present. Not a worthless thing if the move in the form is understood and practiced occasionally with a partner. If the move is understood, but, not practiced with a partner, it becomes almost worthless. If the move is not understood, it is then totally worthless for defense. So I guess it depends on what is understood and how it is practiced(?).
My own experience, training in Submissions and Judo, has helped me understand quite a bit more about my forms from TKD. I would recommend it to anyone really intent on appraising their own forms who doesn't have direct info. In fact Hapkido / Chin Na stylists could probably recognize some of the odder hand movements or positions.
I can see where the different perspectives would be disagreeing. There is a lot that is easy to misunderstand on both ends.
A plus on practicing solo, once the street level of the move is understood, is practicing with full violent force. Control and concern must be used when using a live partner. So the full torque or force can't be fully developed by the kata practicioner if practicing with a live partner all of the time.
white belt
Because of the heated struggle of Renzo, Sakuraba was forced to apply a dangerous amount of pressure on his arm. Both lost their balance and Renzo's arm caught their weight. A sporting lock accidentally turned into something that was originally meant for the street. By allowing his body to turn into Renzo's arm, we got to see what the real life result could be from a form / kata if malicious non-sporting intent were present. Not a worthless thing if the move in the form is understood and practiced occasionally with a partner. If the move is understood, but, not practiced with a partner, it becomes almost worthless. If the move is not understood, it is then totally worthless for defense. So I guess it depends on what is understood and how it is practiced(?).
My own experience, training in Submissions and Judo, has helped me understand quite a bit more about my forms from TKD. I would recommend it to anyone really intent on appraising their own forms who doesn't have direct info. In fact Hapkido / Chin Na stylists could probably recognize some of the odder hand movements or positions.
I can see where the different perspectives would be disagreeing. There is a lot that is easy to misunderstand on both ends.
A plus on practicing solo, once the street level of the move is understood, is practicing with full violent force. Control and concern must be used when using a live partner. So the full torque or force can't be fully developed by the kata practicioner if practicing with a live partner all of the time.
white belt
A
Antares33
Guest
I think the anti form sentiment from the MMA crowd mostly comes from the fact that they simply misunderstand what we're doing when we do a form. The problem is that most peope who haven't done this for themselves see the form as just a bunch of random movements with no basis.
Forms are a method of passing information, and give a sense of how to link different moves together into an effective combination. As long as the proper application of the moves in a form are well understood, and have been practiced. Forms are very usefull.
Forms are a method of passing information, and give a sense of how to link different moves together into an effective combination. As long as the proper application of the moves in a form are well understood, and have been practiced. Forms are very usefull.
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
remember though...most MMA stylists' disciplines do not even contain forms or kata, so it's no surprise that they don't do them.
if you think about it this isn't that big an issue as people may make it out to be. they do their thing, you do yours...somehow no one is happy about it.
if you think about it this isn't that big an issue as people may make it out to be. they do their thing, you do yours...somehow no one is happy about it.
- Thread Starter
- #8
I got to thinking about this after a comment in another thread where someone left a full contact karate school simply because they did katas there. Made me wonder why one would feel so strongly about doing 'em one way or another. (Shrug)
Whatever happened to going in with an empty cup? I mean, katas didn't hurt Bas Rutten.
Whatever happened to going in with an empty cup? I mean, katas didn't hurt Bas Rutten.
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
some people don't like them. some people would rather be working on something else. not everyone has all day to do kata, especially a full-contact fighter trying to train for his or her next fight. some of them have jobs during the day and use whatever free time they have to train. i'm sorry, but if you use that time to do kata you're probably going to have your *** handed to you.
who cares if someone leaves a school because they don't like kata? i wouldn't even care if someone left my school because they didn't like kata that much...maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place. find what works for you and go with it. it's that simple. this is a non-issue.
who cares if someone leaves a school because they don't like kata? i wouldn't even care if someone left my school because they didn't like kata that much...maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place. find what works for you and go with it. it's that simple. this is a non-issue.
J
JDenz
Guest
Ask Bas the last time he did Kata to prepare for a fight though lol. Alot of people like Kata but don't train in them because they have limited training time and need to get in what they can.
J
Jeff Cook
Guest
Knowing what a kata is might be helpful to this discussion.
It is important to note that ALL drills, whether solo or with a partner, are kata. Any movement practiced repeatedly is a kata. Kusanku/KankuDai is a kata, as well as that nifty little passing the guard drill you might be doing with your buddy.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
It is important to note that ALL drills, whether solo or with a partner, are kata. Any movement practiced repeatedly is a kata. Kusanku/KankuDai is a kata, as well as that nifty little passing the guard drill you might be doing with your buddy.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
your definition may be correct here, but you may be generalizing the term too much for the conversation. you have a valid point though, and there is a lot to be learned from it.
MMA'ers in general will tend to look at kata as a "form" or "dance" type of excersise if you will, and they will see a guard passing drill as a "drill."
arguing what is kata and what is not is more of a "potatoe/potato" type of situation. some will say "whoa!...i don't do kata! i do drills! and sparring!" some will say "hmmm...so that's what kata is...ahhhhh." and some will just say "whatever, i'm still not doing any dance routines," and that will be the end of it.
:asian:
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
also, out of curiosity, do you consider a "form" and "kata" to be two different things, or more or less the same?
american kenpo does what some would call kata, but we refer to them as "forms" or "sets" ie: short form 1, long form 2, long form 4, finger set, kicking set, and so on.
white belt
Brown Belt
I agree with the man who compared sport fighting drills, using combos, with a prearranged pattern or kata. It is the same thing. One can be used for sport or self defense, the other, if understood, for non-sporting self defense only.
A good point was brought up about practicing passing the guard. How practical would it be, and how weird would it look, if practiced without a partner? Kata were meant to be practiced with partners AFTER the meanings were either divulged or rediscovered. The solo practice would then take on a new dimension. If I never practiced passing the guard w/a live partner, how could I really see the utility in doing it w/o one, not being told what I am really doing, in the first place? It would look to me like a waste of time too.
white belt
A good point was brought up about practicing passing the guard. How practical would it be, and how weird would it look, if practiced without a partner? Kata were meant to be practiced with partners AFTER the meanings were either divulged or rediscovered. The solo practice would then take on a new dimension. If I never practiced passing the guard w/a live partner, how could I really see the utility in doing it w/o one, not being told what I am really doing, in the first place? It would look to me like a waste of time too.
white belt
J
Jeff Cook
Guest
Good and valid comments.
I consider "forms" and "kata" and drills to be the same thing. It is just one more form of training in a coninuum of drills of various levels of intensity and realism.
A kata becomes a "dance" (whether it be solo or with a partner) when either (a) there is no combative training effect inherent in the movements, or (b) when the practitioner's understanding is too shallow to allow him to recognize the combative training effect inherent in the movements.
Kata is a generalized term, one that we keep trying to make specific, against the original intent of usage. There is ippon and kihon kumite kata, taezunaruwaza kata, nage-no-kata, yakusoku kumite kata, in addition to the solo forms I think most people are thinking of here.
Any drill that lacks intensity and/or focus and/or understanding and/or applicability to the desired goals is worthless to help achieve those goals. I just fear that many folks discount valuable drills because they don't understand them, and thus do not know how to execute them properly.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
I consider "forms" and "kata" and drills to be the same thing. It is just one more form of training in a coninuum of drills of various levels of intensity and realism.
A kata becomes a "dance" (whether it be solo or with a partner) when either (a) there is no combative training effect inherent in the movements, or (b) when the practitioner's understanding is too shallow to allow him to recognize the combative training effect inherent in the movements.
Kata is a generalized term, one that we keep trying to make specific, against the original intent of usage. There is ippon and kihon kumite kata, taezunaruwaza kata, nage-no-kata, yakusoku kumite kata, in addition to the solo forms I think most people are thinking of here.
Any drill that lacks intensity and/or focus and/or understanding and/or applicability to the desired goals is worthless to help achieve those goals. I just fear that many folks discount valuable drills because they don't understand them, and thus do not know how to execute them properly.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
i feel that this is the point that sums up most of what this debate is about. it's all about perception, and each person's perspective on the matter will stray slightly from the next.
good thread, made from a seemingly tired topic. nice work.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
What Jeff said earlier, echoed by many, is that forms, kata, hyung, kuen, drills and sets are essentially the same thing.
A lot of people, likely most people do forms incorrectly. The techniques may be performed properly in accordance with the tenets of their art, but their "form" lacks that certain something that makes it a useful "drill." Namely, the awareness of the reality of the attackers they are supposed to be facing off against.
Someone said earlier that the grappling drills they do are meant to be practiced with a partner. So what do you do when there is no partner? Do you confine your training only to times when you have a partner readily available?
In Yiliquan we are taught four different levels of breakdown to our "forms," each of which contains different applications of the techniques contained in the forms. At level one, a punch is a punch and a block is a block. At level two, a block may be a strike, and a strike may be a block. At level three, the strikes and kicks may well be joint locks, throws and sweeps. At level four we examine the target locations of the strikes, kicks, blocks, etc. for the focus on vital point striking.
So when we are doing "forms," depending on what our intention may be at the time (i.e. the reason we are practicing the form), we may be practicing chin na, shuai chiao, striking, kicking, footwork or vital point striking.
I disagree that grappling training must have a partner. It surely is a good deal more effective when you have a body handy to bend and twist, but techniques can just as easily be practiced sans partners (I believe pretty much all high school wrestling starts with the participants practicing solo drills - drills that fulfill a similar requirement for wrestling that "forms" do for traditional martial arts).
When practicing forms, you really need to "see" your opponent, know what he/she is trying to do to you, what kind(s) of technique(s) are being fired in your direction, and have a real understanding of what the "form" is trying to teach you about dealing with those attacks. In this way, "forms" become "drills," and "drills" can become "forms."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
A lot of people, likely most people do forms incorrectly. The techniques may be performed properly in accordance with the tenets of their art, but their "form" lacks that certain something that makes it a useful "drill." Namely, the awareness of the reality of the attackers they are supposed to be facing off against.
Someone said earlier that the grappling drills they do are meant to be practiced with a partner. So what do you do when there is no partner? Do you confine your training only to times when you have a partner readily available?
In Yiliquan we are taught four different levels of breakdown to our "forms," each of which contains different applications of the techniques contained in the forms. At level one, a punch is a punch and a block is a block. At level two, a block may be a strike, and a strike may be a block. At level three, the strikes and kicks may well be joint locks, throws and sweeps. At level four we examine the target locations of the strikes, kicks, blocks, etc. for the focus on vital point striking.
So when we are doing "forms," depending on what our intention may be at the time (i.e. the reason we are practicing the form), we may be practicing chin na, shuai chiao, striking, kicking, footwork or vital point striking.
I disagree that grappling training must have a partner. It surely is a good deal more effective when you have a body handy to bend and twist, but techniques can just as easily be practiced sans partners (I believe pretty much all high school wrestling starts with the participants practicing solo drills - drills that fulfill a similar requirement for wrestling that "forms" do for traditional martial arts).
When practicing forms, you really need to "see" your opponent, know what he/she is trying to do to you, what kind(s) of technique(s) are being fired in your direction, and have a real understanding of what the "form" is trying to teach you about dealing with those attacks. In this way, "forms" become "drills," and "drills" can become "forms."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
