Mitose

[Goldendragon7]

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

 

[tonbo]

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

:rofl:

But then again, you aren't *biased* or anything, are ya? LOL....

:asian:

Peace--

 

[RCastillo]

Now, if we can't all do that I'll just turn this message board around and we'll all go home, and no we can't stop so you can go to the bathroom. Besides, You should have gone before we left.

Did you fall of the wagon again? Too many different names. Like, I never heard of GoldenPoop, who's that?

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

Quit ticking off the Dragon, there's smoke everywhere, and I can't see!

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Kirk

I guess the problem I'm having is that you seem to come across (to me anyway) that Mitose should be in such a high high
reverance for the creation of EPAK. And it's not just you, it seems
(to me again) that a lot of Tracy Kenpoists want to give the true
credit to Mitose, and Mr Parker is just a blip on the lineage line!

Chow's influence was NOT solely Mitose, and Mr Parker's
influence was NOT solely Chow. If what Mr Parker provided
was only 10% Kenpo upon it's completion, then why credit Mitose
and Chow more than 10%?

Hey Kirk,

I am not sure how you get that, because from what I have found out I think Mitose wasn't much more then a con artist, but I am also fairly sure he was a competent martial artist, or else people like Chow would not have studied with him. But I am not a Mitose fan.

That being said, I believe the biggest influence comes from William Chow. It is unknown what William K. S. Chow's martial arts background was prior to his involvement with James Mitose, that in it's self has been an ongoing debate for some time, although many times throughout his life William Chow claimed that Mitose was his only "Teacher", Chow observed and exchanged information with several different instructors, one very notable teacher was professor Henry Seishiro Okazaki in Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, among many others.

As for Mr. Parker, I have never said that Chow was his only influence/teacher, as he had many from the Chinese community.

Sanxiawuyi

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

:argue:
Huh?
:jediduel:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I said "That was developed under Ed Parker..... the History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story! Period."

Show me where Chow or Mitose did Short/Long Form 1-8.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did any of the Sets we do today.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did the curriculums that we have today...32-23- or 16.....

Well......

Now don't get silly on me..... sure we all know that there are some similarities "generic basics and movements" that are as old as time........ and are seen in various different systems of the martial arts from the Chinese, Japanese, to Korean. Of course there are similar actions........ but nothing like what Ed Parker Put together as a WHOLE CURRICULUM!!

:asian:

Scott,
This is what I asked you back on section (2).....That you didn't answer....... Check Back re-read the thread......

stay on target.........

:asian:

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Scott, This is what I asked you back on section (2).....That you didn't answer....... Check Back re-read the thread......

stay on target.........

:asian:

Dennis,

I didn’t recognize that American Kenpo was only built upon its sets and forms, oh well, but since you are an authority, I’ll take your word on it.

But you since you ask the question, the answer is no. Of course other forms of Kenpo under Chow don’t have the sets/forms of EPAK. Why would they?

That is why Sam Kuoha developed his own sets, big deal! What does that establish? I know a variety of forms of traditional Chinese Wugong, and I could develop some different sets and forms right now based on the techniques of them, does that make it a new system or structure where the history starts with me?!

As for the techniques, yes.
There are techniques that are found in the other systems, maybe different names, but same technique, i.e. Crossing Talon, found in Kara ho, Kosho-ryu, Castro’s Shaolin Kenpo, etc…..

So to answer your question, No.
No one else uses the sets and forms developed by Mr. Parker, James Woo and Ibrao.

Yes, the same techniques are found. No, they don’t use Mr. Parker’s terminology.

I guess I find it sort of sad that a student is told not to look past Mr. Parker for the lineage. Somehow, I don’t think Mr. Parker would say that, but I didn’t know him, you did. I’ll just keep Mr. Parker in my mind as the martial genius I know he was.

To me it would be the same as a student of Shotokan told not to bother looking past Funakoshi, as the history starts with him.

Or a student of Chito-ryu told not to look past Dr. Chitose, as the history starts with him.

I am sorry Mr. Conatser, I believe that Mr. Parker developed American Kenpo, but the genealogy and history goes way beyond him.

Scott
:jediduel:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I agree that he did have people that came before him just as he now has those who come after him.

I guess I look at it like Being A Bill Gates. Sure computers were around before him but....... it was he and his group that put together an operating system that 90 % of the world uses. To me most of the credit goes to Bill Gates for collecting and innovating with what was already there.

It was a nice joust........ we don't agree, and that is ok. You certainly are entitled to your views.

I just resist having Mitose - a convicted criminal, constantly crammed down my throat as being in my lineage when his reputation is questionable at best, and there is "NO proof" as to his validity and lineage, even people that were present in Pasadena and watched his so called techniques, laughed at his prowess.

I choose to run with the truth as I and many, many others know it to be from 1st hand discussions and interactions thru the years.

but....... I could be wrong......


Peace to you........

:asian:

 

[Seig]

I just want you old guys to remember one thing.
People such as Gou and I (we're about the same age) will be writing the next set of history books. We'll be drawing from you old timers. Make sure we get the correct information. We will, if we have not already, draw our own conclussions. The things I have learned on this board have made me question my own instructors, with no satisfactory answers. Let's not pass that on to the next generation.:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I will do my best (as always) to pass on the most accurate information....... I am still a student of Kenpo and intend to pass on what I have experienced but at the same time I still and have much more to learn.....

:asian:

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

It was a nice joust........ we don't agree, and that is ok. You certainly are entitled to your views.

I just resist having Mitose - a convicted criminal, constantly crammed down my throat as being in my lineage when his reputation is questionable at best, and there is "NO proof" as to his validity and lineage, even people that were present in Pasadena and watched his so called techniques, laughed at his prowess.

I choose to run with the truth as I and many, many others know it to be from 1st hand discussions and interactions thru the years.

but....... I could be wrong...... Peace to you........

Yeah that was a fun wrangle, , but I do agree with you on the Mitose issue with lineage, reputation, etc., you won’t find much argument from me there. I do wish more respect was paid to William Chow though. I feel he was much more responsible for the Kenpo to have come out of Hawaii then Mitose or anyone else of that period. I just feel he should be honoured in our “Americanized” systems of Kenpo.

As for yourself Mr. Conatser, this may have been a disagreement over history, but I do hold you in the highest regard and it has been an honour jousting with you. Maybe someday I can meet you in person. Peace be with you.

Scott
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Now we are getting somewhere........ I also agree that Chow was much more of an influence than Mitose..!!!! (As you know, Mitose could be "stricken from the record" and I would not care!)

In talking with several but mostly Ed Parker himself. He always did remember Chow in his beginnings. In fact he even wanted Chow to be his partner and brought him to the states early on to develop the Art. However, Chow became homesick and wanted to return to the islands which is when he gave his blessing to Ed Parker and the rest is history.

Up to that point I think we do agree....... after that point.... Ed Parker then continued to develop and evolve a unique system that I as of yet have not seen duplicated....... (If wrong I want to know what it is) I have looked at Kajukenbo and Lima Lama and others but still don't see the Logic and organization that I see in AK........ not arguing just I have not seen it yet..... if its there I would like to examine it.

Thank you for the energetic discussion and a mature close....
Much Respect as well.....
:asian:

 

[tonbo]

To back up a little bit of what GD7 said....

Last night I was re-reading (yet again, GD!!) "Infinite Insights Vol. 1", where SGM Parker goes through the history of American Kenpo. He's pretty clear about the fact that Kenpo was, in his opinion, Americanized by Mr. Chow. Mitose is little more than a quick historical mention, along with a footnote that says, essentially, that he [SGM Parker] never trained with Mitose, and was unimpressed with his technique and movement.

Mr. Chow, on the other hand, is described as a mentor and as a partner, who gave SGM Parker the impetus and blessing to take Kenpo to the mainland and really bring it to life, which he did.

From that point, I think the rest is history. Mr. Parker took what he knew, built it up, nurtured it, and grew it into what it has become. A couple of Mr. Chow's other students went off on their own as well, and created their own styles (ex. Kajukenbo), so some styles may have similarities. However, AK was, and always has been, Mr. Parker's baby.

Just the way I read it, anyway.....but from Mr. Parker's words....

Peace--

 

[Goldendragon7]

Castro has been mentioned........ Well, just for the record.... He was a Black Belt of Ed Parker's before studying with Chow later in life and Creating Shaolin Kenpo!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
IMPORTANT NOTE:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also there was mention of Ed Parker saying that "all that is left is "10 % Kenpo" and that is why Tracy's left"........

Well just to set the record straight......
yes, Ed Parker said that... but not that he changed Kenpo for the worst (as Al Tracy apparently thinks & wanted to stay with more early original Ed Parker material)

but rather......

filed/abandoned the "junk" (Pinon forms and outdated/unrealistic self defense maneuvers) in favor of new and "logical" updated organized material that he was now using (thus the start of his evolution to the useful, practical, and realistic curriculums of drills we now have.

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
I am not sure how you get that, because from what I have found out I think Mitose wasn't much more then a con artist, but I am also fairly sure he was a competent martial artist, or else people like Chow would not have studied with him. But I am not a Mitose fan.

I out and out asked Huk Planas about Mitose because he was on the mat with him when Mr. Parker was present. Huk said that the old man and himself as well as anyone else present at the time was not impressed with him at all. Kinda like an old jalopy car trying to keep up with a porshe.

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
That being said, I believe the biggest influence comes from William Chow. It is unknown what William K. S. Chow's martial arts background was prior to his involvement with James Mitose, that in it's self has been an ongoing debate for some time, although many times throughout his life William Chow claimed that Mitose was his only "Teacher", Chow observed and exchanged information with several different instructors, one very notable teacher was professor Henry Seishiro Okazaki in Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, among many others.

I've done some research myself on guys like Okazaki, Wally Jay, Parker, Chow, Mitose, Bobo Olsen. They all knew each other. The time was ripe for wild things to happen and they did. However thing get distorted with time. You have to be careful. Recently I spent a good deal of time tracing Ed Parker's Judo background. It's hard to find out what really happened from those who think they know, and those who were there.

As a side note, Chow often claimed that some of his martial arts techniques came to him in dreams and not taught to him per say. So, who really knows?

 

[tonbo]

I'm gonna have to paraphrase this quite a bit, since I am away from the book at the moment, but......

Mr. Parker says in the Infinite Insights history of Kenpo that Mitose did some material for him and a bunch of his students, including Huk Planas, Tom Kelly, Mike Pick, and a couple of others. He said that he was totally unimpressed by Mitose, as Mitose was using applications that left him wide open, as well as using techniques and forms that were almost totally linear. Mr. Parker further says that he could see almost nothing of the circular techniques that he understood Mitose should have known or learned. In short, Mr. Parker didn't feel that Mitose was all that, plain and simple.

Again, I think the relevant point is that, however Mitose is involved in the lineage, the impetus for what American Kenpo has become started rolling with Mr. Chow giving his blessing to SGM Parker. Mr. Parker took that, and his own knowledge, and made EPAK. As Mr. Parker was never directly involved with Mitose, then he is only a minor player. (And a poor role model, at that!!)

Peace--

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Seig
I just want you old guys to remember one thing.
People such as Gou and I (we're about the same age) will be writing the next set of history books. We'll be drawing from you old timers. Make sure we get the correct information. We will, if we have not already, draw our own conclussions.

Me..teaching...jeez...now there's a mental picture...

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Me..teaching...jeez...now there's a mental picture...

Well, heck, I had to scare the old guys so they would take me seriously

 

[Goldendragon7]

I've been telling you guys........

:asian: