Mister (Miss), Master...what's in the term SBN?

[MBuzzy]

Ok - Kwanjangnim is technically head of school, although many styles and scools use it just for individual school or building owner as opposed to style. Choonjaenim is another way to say it and is closer to meaning head of style.

 

[Nibla]

Not can be left out but SHOULD be left out. You should NEVER refer to yourself as nim. You do not say , “I am Sabum – nim” you say, “I am a taekwondo sabum.”

Korean is not that difficult a language to learn, Chinese characters are very hard but really fun and also revealing. Everyone tries to copy cultural elements from martial arts without understanding them. My advice would be to study language for it is the gateway to culture.

ron

p.s. Using a internet translation program will only get you so far and most of the time it gives a very sterile, incomplete translation. Use that only as a tool for one word standard text.

I didn't say introducing yourself, but inbetween close friends. For eg. I could say "Hey, Kim sabu(m)" or just call them by their name. But yes, introducing yourself you should always put yourself lower than the other.

And as for the Nim and age connection, it's standard for 2 Koreans that don't know each other to speak to eachother in the polite/honoring fashion, even at late teens - early twenties age. Once you realise you are the same age, you can both agree to drop it, or an older person can suggest they drop it. This may or may not happen, especially if you are not going to be talking for that long, etc.

Source? Being Korean...

 

[MSUTKD]

Nibla,

That was not directed at you at all! I was pointing out that many non-Koreans use “nim” all the time when referring to themselves. I have seen it used on business cards, on belts – where they put their name- such as “sabumnim randomlastname “on students belts ???, and other written areas. I would put this in the same category as referring to myself as “El Conquistador” Southwick. If they want to call me that then okay (honorifically of course) but to use it as a title is actually arrogant or in most cases ignorant (because they do not understand the language).

 

[IcemanSK]

*Note to self. Cancel "El Conquistador" belt order*:uhyeah:


I appreciate all of your responses a great deal. I had a feeling this term was misunderstood in the US. I understand too that it's easier for an instructor to tell students "call me SBN" & to say little else about it, than to go into a detailed meaning of the term & it's correct usage.

 

[Archtkd]

Nibla,

That was not directed at you at all! I was pointing out that many non-Koreans use “nim” all the time when referring to themselves. I have seen it used on business cards, on belts – where they put their name- such as “sabumnim randomlastname “on students belts ???, and other written areas. I would put this in the same category as referring to myself as “El Conquistador” Southwick. If they want to call me that then okay (honorifically of course) but to use it as a title is actually arrogant or in most cases ignorant (because they do not understand the language).

Master Southwick. Thanks for the clarification on "nim".

Quick questions in that regard. If you are instructing a class and you are giving the opening "bow to the flags and bow to the instructor" commands should you just use sabum -- in reference to yourself? If one of the junior students is giving the command should they then use sabumnim -- in reference to you? Actually should an instructor give the opening bow commands in their class or always relegate that duty to a lower ranking student -- something I've seen many of my teachers do?

 

[MSUTKD]

I am old school so there is no, “Sabumnim Kae” when we bow. Just “Charyeot, Kyung rhea”; that you are bowing to the instructor is implied. I have seen 1000’s of variations in the US, but the lower student could say it with “nim”, the instructor would not say it about himself if he was commanding. Let’s see if Nibla chimes in.

 

[MSUTKD]

*note to self. Cancel "el conquistador" belt order*:uhyeah:

lol!

 

[MBuzzy]

I am old school so there is no, “Sabumnim Kae” when we bow. Just “Charyeot, Kyung rhea”; that you are bowing to the instructor is implied. I have seen 1000’s of variations in the US, but the lower student could say it with “nim”, the instructor would not say it about himself if he was commanding. Let’s see if Nibla chimes in.

Every SBN that I trained with in Korea didn't say sabom at all. Usually just kyung rhea.

 

[Nibla]

No problem MSUTKD, I wasn't sure if it was directed at me or not but just wanted to clarify.

I think the usage of the word is a little muddled, as I've seen it on Korean business cards too, but in most cases the nim part is left out. It is a little pretentious to use it on yourself though.

As per usage in schools, I don't have any adult/real experience with TKD, so can't comment accurately, but if a lower student is referring to the SBN, then sure, the nim should come in. This would be if the student is leading the warm up/kyung re part with the instructor standing by the side or something. Again, I'm not sure what the normal routine is, so the words used may differ...

Should've known better than stick my nose in the KMA forums eh?

 

[Master K]

Just to clarify a bit further, you are correct that nim is a term of respect used for those "higher" than you, either in rank, authority, or age. So a 50 year old white belt may use the term nim with a 25 year old black belt. But in everyday life, it is much more based on age. In fact, in Korean culture almost EVERYTHING is based on age.

But I digress, the point of clarification is that nim is not really synonymous with sir or ma'am. I make this point because it CANNOT stand alone. Nim is what is known as an honorific. There IS NO translation to English. In fact, we don't even have an equivalence for honorifics. Well, in a sense we do. In Korean, there are varying levels of speech.

Example: If I'm speaking to someone older than myself or someone I don't know (formal), I would say "Craig 입니다" (I am Craig; Craig imnida). But if I was talking to someone I knew or someone younger or my age, I would say "Craig 이에요" (I am Craig, Craig ieyo). They mean the same thing, but in different honorific contexts. This is true with EVERY SENTENCE....even thank you has different levels. Kahmsahamnida, komapsumnida and komawoyo are all different respect levels for thank you....all mean exactly the same thing.

I say that we have an equivalence in a sense, because you will speak differently to a child than you would an elder or the president....it is just an intrinsic part of EVERY SENTENCE to the Koreans.

So please don't go ahead saying "Yes, Nim!"....just doesn't work! it is ONLY an ending, not a word on its own. In fact, they don't even use sir most of the time....no need when the respect is dripping from every word!

You are correct in that I should have been more clear. It is true that NIM is an honorific. And I was told to think of it as such. I failed to articulate that better. Thanks for clarifying it.

 

[MBuzzy]

You are correct in that I should have been more clear. It is true that NIM is an honorific. And I was told to think of it as such. I failed to articulate that better. Thanks for clarifying it.

No problem, it is just a confusing topic for most people and I have actually heard people say "Yes, nim!" and just.....wow.....

 

[wade]

Too much Saki and too many readings of the crap y'all are coming up with. Good for a late night boredom but OMG! I gotta ask, are y'all really for real?

 

[MBuzzy]

Too much Saki and too many readings of the crap y'all are coming up with. Good for a late night boredom but OMG! I gotta ask, are y'all really for real?

Koreans don't drink Sake, they drink Soju, completely different drink and MUCH better.

Yep, 100% for real. I have been studying the Korean language for a few years now. Being proficient in Korean is not an easy task, but when training there and with Koreans, it makes a huge impact. It opens a lot of doors for you in the country. I also see it as a way to pay tribute to my style of martial arts by respecting their culture enough to learn their ways and language. Plus, I lived there for a year, I love the country, love the people, and the culture is incredible.

Plus, if I speak proficiently enough, the Military pays me $400 a month in language bonus....so I spend about an hour a day studying - and when I go BACK to Korea, either to live or visit, there are so many things that I want to do that I couldn't due to lack of language skills.

 

[MBuzzy]

Oh yeah.....and let's say FOR EXAMPLE, you are meeting the head of your style. A very old, traditional Korean, possibly even FROM Korea. Using the improper honorifics, while it may be understood, since you are not Korean, is VERY disrespectful. Addressing them properly says volumes to a Korean about your character and dedication.

The difference between "Craig imnida" and "Craig isseoyo" can be huge.

 

[CanadianKyosa]

So far as I know, this is the case with pretty much all Asian arts. Grandmaster was a term invented when arts were imported to the west.


Good to know!

Daniel

Sonsaeng is not used to indicate SIr/Ma'am. It is the title used to speak to a teacher who is in the position of a kyosa or kyosu. The latter two words are only used to speak indirectly about a teacher, never using -nim. What you would do is say is "Park is (a) kyosu/kyosu." If you spoke to Park directly, then you would use sonsaeng(nim) (note that sonsaeng may be used separate also, as I understand)> What I am saying is that in the martial arts, a kyosa is, improperly, addressed as kyosanim while they should be addressed as sonsaengnim. Also, sabeom means exactly the same as kyosa but is only used in martial arts.Also, titles are ALWAYS used after the name and NEVER before. To do the latter is rude.

 

[CanadianKyosa]

*Roughly

Dahnbo =apprentice black belt (2+ black stripes on brown)
Chokyo = assistant teacher
Gyosa/Kyosu (gyosu is university only) = teacher/professor
Pusabeom (p is the correct sound) = under instructor*
Sabeom = teacher (only used in martial arts and is not found in 99% of dictionaries)
Kwanjawng = School owner (not rank required but some use it as a rank (ie Kuk Sool Won) for master
Chung Kwanjang = Chief Master (a student one master has promoted from white to master ranking)
Saja= System Inheritor (Rudy Timmerman SJN claims this of Kong Shin Bup and promoted Kevin Janisse to Kong Sin Bup GM in 2014)
Guksa = National Teacher (Suh In Hyuk of Guk Sool Won is probably the best known)

Note, that titles only use -nim, generally, or when talking to business associates and such. In everyday parlance, it is typical to use the honourific -ssi instead of -nim. The Japanese -san may be, *, similar to -ssi and -sama as to -nim.

 

[Buka]

Boy, have I got a lot to learn.