Michuan alterations?

[Nyarlathotep]

I apologise in advance if this subject has already appeared in discussions, but I couldn't find any direct (or indirect for that matter) answer to this question through the search facility.

I've heard many many different interpretations about what was excluded from Yang Lu Chan's 'original' form and teaching to create the variation as practised by Yang Chen-Fu, or more accurately the Manchu's, and I was wondering where the truth lies.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no slouch, it's just that the more I look, the more confused I become as there are at least 3 different and contradictory styles practised under the name 'michuan' (most clearly the exact sort of rubbish that always gravitates towards any suggestion of the hidden or secret), so I thought I'd lay the question open before your collected knowledge, hoping that you can shine a light through this murk.

The actual forms aside, how did lu-chan doctor the art?
Did he (for instance) teach the structure of the form, but neglect to pass on the internal 'secret' aspects, rendering it pretty much worthless as anything but a purely external art?
Or conversely was the original more like cannonfist and he altered it by making it slower, smoother and less explosive?



Oh and Hello by the way

 

[bigfootsquatch]

No one really knows what Yang Lu Chan's Family/Personal Tai Chi looked like.
As far as michuan goes there is;
Imperial Yang Style Taijiquan-supposedly what was taught to the Imperial Court
Yang Jian Hou's Taijiquan-the "hidden family tradition" you'll find with scott rodell I believe
Yang Ban Hou/Shou Hou(most would agree of the form being small frame with powerful fajing)-the MOST controversal, as so many claim lineage and everyone is different-lineage claimers-erle montaigue and yang jwing ming come to mind, yang jwing ming is pretty popular and doesn't make such a big deal about his lineage. his tai chi looks a lot different than others out there. erle's form looks similiar to Chen Pan Ling's form but with fajing, (CPL also studied with Shao Hou I believe).

There are also a ton of other yang styles like kings fist, wisdom fist, and so on that I haven't a clue about.

As for what YLC did with the Imperial Court, his imperial tai chi would have had to been somewhat effective(healing and martial), or the Manchus would have realized he was teaching something fake.
Some have also said that YLC modified his Tai Chi to fit the clothing and leisurely life style of the Imperial Court-this being a smaller frame with slow movements.

As for as studying michuan, Imperial...etc. Yang Cheng Fu's Tai Chi is very effective. I wouldn't say the other styles were more effective other than the way they were taught. Most all of the Yangs were VERY hard teachers up to YCF.....
I've rambled on enough now

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bottomline, the only people that really know are dead and anyone else claiming to know for certain is not exactly truthful.

Luchan learned from Chen and developed Yang small frame

Banhou and Jainhou learned from Luchan

Jainhou changed it to something referred to as medium frame

Banhou taught Shaohou and Jainhou taught Chengfu (Shaohou and Changfu are sons of Jainhou)

Chengfu changed it to large frame.

There is one of the Yang variations, I am not exactly sure which one that the lineage is seriously in doubt but I am not sure which one that is at the moment. Actually there are a few that are in doubt.

As to secret teachings, my guess is it is a load of hooey to promote sales.

Erle claims lineage to Luchan and I find that doubtful

Yang Jwing MIng claims lineage to Banhou and I find this likely

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Bottomline, the only people that really know are dead and anyone else claiming to know for certain is not exactly truthful.

Luchan learned from Chen and developed Yang small frame

Banhou and Jainhou learned from Luchan

Jainhou changed it to something referred to as medium frame

Banhou taught Shaohou and Jainhou taught Chengfu (Shaohou and Changfu are sons of Jainhou)

Chengfu changed it to large frame.

There is one of the Yang variations, I am not exactly sure which one that the lineage is seriously in doubt but I am not sure which one that is at the moment. Actually there are a few that are in doubt.

As to secret teachings, my guess is it is a load of hooey to promote sales.

Erle claims lineage to Luchan and I find that doubtful

Yang Jwing MIng claims lineage to Banhou and I find this likely

Most all lineages outside of Cheng Fu are in doubt unfortunately.
Erle claims lineage to Shao Hou through Chang Yiu Chun(which we dont know if he is real or not). Why he called his form the YLC form is because he doesn't believe Shao Hou changed the form his father created(and it works good for marketing i'm sure). Some believe Shao Hou changed it to small frame, and YLC was old frame. Who knows and who cares? The Yang Family are too busy changing their form every generation for us to keep up.

As you said though Xue, the secret teachings are mainly for money I would imagine. I haven't seen too many of the secret styles that look very good.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most all lineages outside of Cheng Fu are in doubt unfortunately.
Erle claims lineage to Shao Hou through Chang Yiu Chun(which we dont know if he is real or not). Why he called his form the YLC form is because he doesn't believe Shao Hou changed the form his father created(and it works good for marketing i'm sure). Some believe Shao Hou changed it to small frame, and YLC was old frame. Who knows and who cares? The Yang Family are too busy changing their form every generation for us to keep up.

As you said though Xue, the secret teachings are mainly for money I would imagine. I haven't seen too many of the secret styles that look very good.

Agreed and I tend to be one of those that does not believe Shaohou changed what he learned from Benhou who learned from Luchan.

This is part of my problem with Erle (and there are other parts) he never mentions Banhou. And Shouhou did not learn from Luchan, but his teacher Banhou sure did.

 

[dmax999]

I have a slightly different theory, with no way to prove it either.

I personally believe most of the Yang family changes have been made to make Tai Chi easier to teach and learn. There is no less effectiveness in the changes, just more rapid progress in the beginning (heh, rapid progress is Tai Chi, lol). It still takes a long time and a lot of work to truly learn it and be able to use it.

I also believe the side effect has been a lot of people learning the long form and thinking they have finished learning the system. So now they teach without understanding and eventually you get thousands of teachers that have no business teaching it at all.

If you would like to "guess" at YLC's version, compare the beginning of the Yang long form to Chen's Lao Jao Yi Lu (sp?). They are similar in many ways and YLC's was probably somewhere between the two, you can make your own decision on where between.

 

[Xue Sheng]

a lot of people learning the long form and thinking they have finished learning the system. So now they teach without understanding and eventually you get thousands of teachers that have no business teaching it at all.

This I agree with.

You also have a lot learning 24 and 48 and thinking the same thing.