Michael Jai White - non telegraphic movement

[drop bear]

I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.

If you are doing your job right you should be able to tell when they will punch before they punch.

Because again you are not just going to sit there with this straight line between their fist and your head in arms reach.

So they move and then strike. When they move, you move and you become one beat ahead of them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are doing your job right you should be able to tell when they will punch before they punch.

Because again you are not just going to sit there with this straight line between their fist and your head in arms reach.

So they move and then strike. When they move, you move and you become one beat ahead of them.

Agreed. But not before they make the decision to punch.

 

[Anarax]

You still aren't understanding what I'm saying

It's not I lack the ability to comprehend what you're saying, it's that what you're saying isn't true

There is movement before you actually do an action.

Now you're changing what you originally said. Knowing before they decide(which is before movement) is different from picking up on physical tells.

It's not the readers inability to understand you if you 1) type one thing but then mean something entirely different or 2) Gradually change your position from what you originally typed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.

It is very simple as long as you don't look at it like trying to predict the future. Thinking of it that way will point you in the wrong direction. An attack is 2 things. You decide what you "WANT TO DO" which shows in how you stand and move (this often given away by creep stance, stance position, and distance). Then you decide "WHEN TO DO IT" which was the flex in Micheal Jai White's shoulder.

"Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action. In the case of the video it was a "creep stance" and a calm before the punch.

Remember. There are 2 decisions that you make for an attack "What you want to do" and "When you do it" This is only for an attack, countering and defense is different.

 

[Martial D]

Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods). Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things. We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye." The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
Here's an example of that ability to track motion

I forgot the name of the Japanese Swordman who stated "focus by not focusing" or something like that. When you are able to do this at will, then it will be like everything is slowing down and moving in slow motion. You see the motion that comes before the motion. I've only been able to do this once during sparring.

I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent. I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent. Your opponent should be like a blur. Keep doing this until it becomes easy to see the movement. Once you "master" this then move your gaze a little closer to your opponent. Eventually you'll get to point where you almost look directly at your opponent without focusing in on your opponent.

Give it a try and you'll be able to even detect motion that was described in the OP's video. Have fun with it and be patient. Focusing by not focusing is difficult to do, but when you get it, you'll be amazed.

I learned to do this years ago all on my own, just from sparring a lot. Fuzz your vision by not focussing on anything and you will see everything. This also makes you harder to read.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. But not before they make the decision to punch.

If you spar then you do this all the time. It probably plays in your mind as "It looks like he wants to punch me." or "It looks like he wants to kick me." These thoughts come to mind based on the information that you see in their stance, movement, and body position. To prove that you may have done this before. It is most likely that you moved forward, backwards, or at an angle to force your opponent to reset their plans for what they were trying to do. On some occasions you may stay there so you can counter, because you know what's coming before it comes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Now you're changing what you originally said. Knowing before they decide(which is before movement) is different from picking up on physical tells.

This is what I said in my post "If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it." This reflects what I'm trying to tell you. This happens when you see what your opponent wants to do. It is not the same as seeing WHEN your opponent has decided to do it. Those are two different things. Baits will sometimes happen because you see what your opponent WANTS to do. So instead of trying to make force bait a kick, you just set the opponent to do what they are trying to do anyway. This falls under the statement in red.

You are having difficulty because you keep thinking of it as predicting the future. Nothing I'm saying is mystical.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Question #1. Based on stance and body position of the guy scoring punches, What does it look like he wants to do?
Question #2 Are you able to see the strike that he wants to do before he actually does it.
Question #3 If you can see the strike then can you see any tell-tale of when he will decide to do the strike. Keep in mind. The tell-tale may not only be on the person, but it may also be a reaction to ones distance. In other words, when fighter A gets withing a certain distance fighter B will be triggered into an attack, defense, of movement backwards. In the context of the video below was distance a triggering factor?

 

[drop bear]

I don't think we a completely eliminating tells. Just reducing the time the other guy has to react.

So if jow gar is saying there is still ways to pick a punch coming he is correct.

Its still a fight

 

[JowGaWolf]

And how you would apply this would be if say for example you punch with a flaired elbow. That elbow coming across the body becomes a visual clue that you are punching. Rather than seeing the fist moving directly forwards which is hard.

This is what I refer to as "hiding motion within motion." My opinion is that at this stage the martial arts practitioner becomes very dangerous. If your opponent catches on to how you are reading them and is of a high skill level in terms of analyzing their opponents (in this case you -general you), then they will start hiding movements of one techniques in the movement of another technique. By default there a lot of techniques like that that are taught right off the back that do this. We often see it a variety of this with kicking techniques but not so much with punches in comparison.

The more I understand the techniques I know the more I begin to see that the founding martial artists really had a strong understanding of body mechanics, human behavior, and how to exploit it. It's like my studies of martial arts moves away from fighting and more into science or human studies.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think we a completely eliminating tells. Just reducing the time the other guy has to react.

So if jow gar is saying there is still ways to pick a punch coming he is correct.

Its still a fight

Correct. It would be very difficult to do so if not impossible (to completely eliminate tells). In reality a tell-tale only really exists if your opponent sees it and exploits it. Exploit being the key word. It doesn't help to see a punch coming and still get hit by it. I've done that a few times as well. I've been hit right in the eye, as I watch the punch leave and land on my eyeball. Literally the only reason it got dark was because they glove was covering my opened eye. I would laugh and joke about it and get back to business. I spar to learn so no real damage was done other than a little hit to my pride.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fuzz your vision by not focussing on anything and you will see everything.

As crazy as that description sounds, that's exactly what it's like.

I found the quote that I was referring to that says exactly what you are describing. The "perception is strong and sight is weak" is what happens when the vision is "fuzzed" You see stuff but you couldn't read a name tag to save your life during this phase. "See distance things as if they were close" I'm not sure about this one. I think this describes seeing the movements of an attack. The movements are very slight and when viewed normally it's like seeing a care move in the distances. You wouldn't be able to tell how much it moved because it's so far way. But when the vision is "fuzzed," that slight motion becomes more noticeable as if you were looking at something close. The other meaning I think can be that we would have more visual details on things far away vs the person opponent in front of us who is "fuzzed" The last part "to take distanced view of close things" could be the blurring or fuzzed look at the opponent who is closer. Things that are far away lose detail things that are closer have detail. It could be both are correct interpretations of meaning.

“Perception is strong and sight weak. In strategy it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things.”

― Miyamoto Musashi


I did some research on the net to see what boxing says about the concept. Here's how one site explains it.
Source: Boxing Tip #5: Learn to Read the Signs | Commando Boxing - How to Box
There are two types of tells:
1. Universal tells. These are based on physiology. For instance, the hips have to rotate a certain way to throw a certain punch.

2. Idiosyncratic tells. These are unique to your opponent. They are habits they have developed over time which have either gone unnoticed or unchecked.

How to Read the Universal Signs
How to Read the Idiosyncratic (Personality Driven) Signs

Here's another site
Source: Boxing Tip #23: How to See Punches | Commando Boxing - How to Box
Is the hand really quicker than the eye?
"The human eye can detect movement discontinuities up to 60 frames per second. Your hands certainly cannot move that fast."

 

[Anarax]

If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it

The key word here is before, your eyes must see what there is to react to before you react. The only way your statement makes sense is if my opponent 1) throws the punch then 2) decides to throw it after he already threw it. Meaning he only decided the throw the punch after he threw it. It makes no sense

 

[Anarax]

"Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action

If they do punch from that position, then they already decided to do so, hence is why they got into that position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The only way your statement makes sense is if my opponent 1) throws the punch then 2) decides to throw it after he already threw it. Meaning he only decided the throw the punch after he threw it. It makes no sense

Nah dude. That's not what I'm saying. Not sure how you even got that. I've said multiple times.
1. you decide what attack you want to do.
2. you decide when do the attack.

In the video below
#1 can be seen in the low side horse stance and movement that MJW takes. The video shows him in a low stance that allows him to do his side kick. He does it multiple times against different people and they still didn't pick it up. If he stands like that then you know what he's trying to do. In the context of the video, it's a side kick.

#2 can be seen by the specific movement that happens right before the attacking. Once you know what your opponent wants to do based on his stance and movement, then the only thing left is to figure out when he's going to side kick you. If you know #1 then you can start looking for the tell-tale sign that will alert you to when he has made the decision to actually kick.
Look at the video below it's all there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If they do punch from that position, then they already decided to do so, hence is why they got into that position.

You aren't going to understand and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

 

[Anarax]

You aren't going to understand and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

There isn't anything you're saying to be understood. You just post a bunch of videos(which are either fake or irrelevant to your point). If you want to believe that you can predict techniques then go right ahead. Are there physical tells? Yes. Is there a way to be aware of everything and sense things before they happen? No. Believe whatever you want

 

[JowGaWolf]

There isn't anything you're saying to be understood. You just post a bunch of videos(which are either fake or irrelevant to your point). If you want to believe that you can predict techniques then go right ahead. Are there physical tells? Yes. Is there a way to be aware of everything and sense things before they happen? No. Believe whatever you want

Yes. I will definitely believe in something that I've done and have taught others to do. No need to tell me to believe in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is very simple as long as you don't look at it like trying to predict the future. Thinking of it that way will point you in the wrong direction. An attack is 2 things. You decide what you "WANT TO DO" which shows in how you stand and move (this often given away by creep stance, stance position, and distance). Then you decide "WHEN TO DO IT" which was the flex in Micheal Jai White's shoulder.

"Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action. In the case of the video it was a "creep stance" and a calm before the punch.

Remember. There are 2 decisions that you make for an attack "What you want to do" and "When you do it" This is only for an attack, countering and defense is different.

Okay, I think I get what you are saying, and where the disconnect is. You mean after they choose the weapon (right cross, for instance), but before they choose the moment. So, not the tells of the beginning of the punch, but as they move into position to be ready for it.

Edit: fixed a typo...or two

 

[Martial D]

Okay, I think I get what you are saying, and where the disconnect is. You mean after they choose the weapon (right cross, for instance), but before they choose the moment. So, not the tells of the beginning of the punch, but as they move into position to be ready for it.

Edit: fixed a typo...or two

A really obvious example of this is with spinning attacks. I can almost always tell when someone intends to throw some spinning shiz just by their change of posture and stance.