Mass murder before 1967

[Makalakumu]

I normally hate Disney, but sometimes there are certain scenes in movies that have something important to teach. Regarding the subject of mass murder and extending the subject to the topic of war is entirely appropriately, IMO. It's a moral contradiction for us to decry the massacre of innocent people by one person and laud the same massacre by another who is wearing an official costume.

The key, as has been pointed out, is the dehumanization that has to occur for something like this to occur. Perhaps, if we can learn any lesson from this tragedy, the real evil that leads to massacres is the dehumanization process that makes them possible. There are lots of ways that this can happen. Individuals can do it to themselves and groups can do it collectively.

IMO, I think it's fair to say that both are evil and both lead to evil.

 

[billc]

Remember, the nazis were stopped by American Soldiers (and the allies the British, Canadians, Australians and others)...

http://www.quora.com/U-S-History/Wh...ualties-during-World-War-II-Europe-or-Pacific

Number of Amercian soldiers killed in the European Theater...

Europe: 213407

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Army_Casualties_in_Europe_Area_during_World_War_2

Wow, 1757, that wasn't a long time ago was it? and those were Europeans back then anyway...British subjects at that point...

Do I have to post the atrocities committed against prisoners by the various early American tribes, in particular the Iroquois?

 

[elder999]

Do I have to post the atrocities committed against prisoners by the various early American tribes, in particular the Iroquois?

No-right now it would only make me long for the good old days, billi-your posts often make me want to commit a couple of days worth of "atrocities".....:lfao:

 

[Makalakumu]

Remember, the nazis were stopped by American Soldiers (and the allies the British, Canadians, Australians and others)...

...like the Russians. In fact, it's fair to say that the Russians stopped the Nazi war machine and all others wiped up the mess.

Stalingrad.

 

[billc]

Here you go Makalakumu...

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Indian:Massacres.htm

f we loosen our definition further and decide to count all people who died violently in the ongoing warfare between whites and Native Americans -- battle deaths as well as murders -- we can turn to the 1894 estimate by the US Census Bureau (cited in Russel Thornton, American Indian Holocaust and Survival). There it was calculated that some 30,000 to 45,000 Native American men, women, and children died at the hands of whites in formal wars, 1775-1890, while some 14,000 white men, women, and children died at the hands of Native Americans. In addition to these, some 5,000 whites and 8,500 Native Americans were killed in smaller, unofficial fights between individuals up and down the frontier.
Neither side stands out as being more merciful or humane than the other. Both sides collected scalps and scrota as trophies. Both sides raped. Both sides would promise safe conduct to defeated enemies or non-combatants, and then massacre them as soon as they let their guard down. Both sides attacked easy targets (such as peaceful -- even friendly -- villages and settlements) as retaliation for hostile acts by totally unrelated war bands and militia units.
Here is a list of the larger or more widely known massacres of the North American conflict:

• March 22, 1622 - Jamestown Massacre - Powhatans kill 347 English settlers throughout the Virginia colony.

Also...

• 1778 - Wyoming Valley Massacre - Iroquois kill 360 settlers.
• 1778 - Cherry Valley Massacre[COLOR=#009900 !important][/COLOR], New York - over 30 settlers killed.
• January, 1813 - River Raisin[COLOR=#009900 !important][COLOR=#009900 !important][/COLOR][/COLOR] Massacre - 30-60 Kentucky militia killed after surrendering.
• 1862 - As many as 800 settlers killed in uprising of Santee Sioux.

Here is another one...

http://www.wvculture.org/history/settlement/fortseybert03.html

It was known as Fort Sybert - sometimes spelled Seybert. It was built as a place of security and protection from the Indians. Yet it became the scene of one of the most brutal and bloody massacres of which the Indians in all this part of the whole country were ever guilty. The fort, filled with refugees from all the country around, was attacked by Indians in 1758, although a newspaper printed about 100 years afterward, and quoted below, gave the date as "about 1760."
Those behind its protecting walls defended it vigorously. But they were outnumbered and overpowered by the Indians who set fire to the fort and burned it completely after every person who had taken refuge in it had been either killed or carried away captive. The destruction of Sybert's fort, with the slaughter of all its inmates who were not carried into captivity, was one of the most atrocious and bloody Indian crimes ever committed in what today is West Virginia.

The prisoners were then arranged in two rows, about ten feet apart. Two selected from the warriors each took a tomahawk and, passing along both lines, killed all the old people and such as they thought could not travel. The lad Nicholas, as soon as this work began, went to Kill Buck and reminded him of the terms of the treaty. Kill Buck, with an air of imprecation, said that he, Nicholas, ought to be thankful, as his life would be spared. The parents of this youth were among the slain. For the sake of Nicholas, to say nothing of themselves, they deserved a better fate.
Soon after the work of death was complete, they set fire to the fort and all the buildings and departed for home. A small party remained for some purpose the prisoners could not understand.
Indians Barbariously Slay Baby Because it Wails
The first occurrence on the journey worthy of notice was an act of great barbarity. One of the prisoners was the mother of a young infant. This child, after several days of exposure became ill and very fretful. The mother, of course, did what she could to keep it quiet, but could not always succeed. During a fit of crying, an Indian appeared with his tomahawk raised, evidently intending its death. The mother, on seeing this, made more than usual efforts, and the crying was stopped. The fatal blow was not then inflicted. The next day the baby began crying again, the Indian returned, began wrestling after the child and the mother, cut it on the head with his tomahawk, dashed out its brains against a tree, threw it down and passed on.

 

[billc]

It wouldn't be fair to say that about the Soviets Makalakumu. Remember, they also invaded Poland...

The 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland was a Soviet military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939, during the early stages of World War II. Sixteen days afterNazi Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union did so from the east. The invasion ended on 6 October 1939 with the division and annexing of the whole of the Second Polish Republicby Germany and the Soviet Union.[SUP][6][/SUP]

Also...

http://englishrussia.com/2008/01/15/american-weapons-in-russian-army/

During World War 2 America helped Soviet Russia a lot with different weapons. Trucks, jeeps, military and cargo planes – all sorts of technical equipment was sent to Russia.
In this post we’ll have some unique photos from WW2 by Russian soldier who participated in such missions to America for this help. He was a pilot and their squad was taking American planes to Russia during the war. According to his son’s stories this visits to USA left a big impression upon minds of Russian soldiers, but they were desperate to help their country to win the war and none of the decided to seek a refuge in States.
They usually were taking B-25 heavy bomber planes and P-53 “King Cobras” lighter fighters. It’s interesting that the Red Stars, the emblems of Soviet Russian Army were printed on the planes right in the US and they were flying those Red Star marked planes above USA freely on their way to Russia. Those were the only times I guess when Russian military planes were above the States. Though those Red Star logos were afterwards wiped out in Russia because they were paintedon a white circle, according USAAF standards and were not exactly what Stalin and other Russian chief commanders wanted to see on Russian planes.

 

[rickster]

Mass murder by shootings?

There had been a number of other shootings before the 70's-80's...and these are not only "mass"

 

[Makalakumu]

You're going to have to research what happened at the Eastern Front, Bill. Stalingrad was the biggest battle of WWII and the German Army was basically destroyed by the Russians.

Anyway, the mass murder at Stalingrad and in Aurora have something in common. The process of dehumanization makes it all possible. What exactly is this? How does it occur? How do we stop it? It seems obviously evil to me...

 

[elder999]

. The process of dehumanization makes it all possible. What exactly is this? How does it occur? How do we stop it? It seems obviously evil to me...

It's fundamentally human, what I call "the Big Lie."

Us, and them.

 

[billc]

The soviets were incompetent and still needed to be supplied by the Allies to fight their side of the war they helped start. The decisions made by Stalin were ruinous to the Soviet army and if it wasn't for bad weather, and the pressure of the allies on the other side of Germany, bombing German industry into little pieces then the Soviets would have fallen as well.

 

[granfire]

The soviets were incompetent and still needed to be supplied by the Allies to fight their side of the war they helped start. The decisions made by Stalin were ruinous to the Soviet army and if it wasn't for bad weather, and the pressure of the allies on the other side of Germany, bombing German industry into little pieces then the Soviets would have fallen as well.

LOL

:lfao:
If the dog hadn't shat he'd caught the rabbit...
The Russian psyche is alien to Europeans, I don't hold my breath waiting for you to get it....

 

[billc]

This article looks at the Soviets during world war 2, their intention to invade the west, which was beaten by Germany invading two weeks early and why they lost so quickly at first...

http://www.2worldwar2.com/russia.htm

But what Russian historiography censored for decades, is the large scale of total morale collapse of Soviet armed forces and Communist party establishments which escaped, 'disappeared', or surrendered before they even were engaged in battle. Millions, from privates to Generals, individually or as entire units, abandoned their tanks, guns, air bases, without battle, and escaped on vehicles or on foot, or simply disappeared into the nearby villages and forests.
Fighting and then losing is one thing. Massive and rapid escape without a fight and massive voluntary surrender, are another, and Soviet censorship tried to hide that, by further intensifying the myth of the destructiveness of the German attack, and by further intensifying the belief that the entire red army was right on the border. There are reports of entire unit staffs which escaped without battle and were found again hundreds of kilometers to the East. There were tens of Generals who disappeared and were never located again. There are reports of tank divisions which, although they were not right on the border and were not engaged in fighting in the first day, miraculously 'lost' 100% of their tanks and other fighting equipment in the second day of fighting, without actually being engaged in battle, and then escaped hundreds of kilometers eastwards almost without losing a single truck even to technical malfunction. There are reports of entire Air Force regiments which reported that they suffered negligible or no losses in the air or on the ground at the first day, and then simply abandoned their air bases and escaped by trucks and on foot. In 1941 Russia lost millions of soldiers. Only 32% of the reported losses were the dead and wounded. Millions surrendered, many of them as fast as they could, and so many others escaped from the front, either disappeared or remained in service, but only after a distant escape and after abandoning every weapon or equipment, even rifles and light mortars, that could force them to stay and fight.
The apparent reasons for this mass unwillingness to fight were:

• A further intensified mental shock of those who were always trained educated and taught others that attack and victory are the only possible option, and suddenly found themselves under massive surprise attack for which they never planned or prepared.
• Stalin, the murderous dictator, was surrounded with people who told him much too often what he wanted to hear about Russia's preparations for war. The enormous reported numbers of material production and manpower training were perhaps correct. For example the figures of vast mass-training of pilots (which, by the way, were NOT volunteers, unlike pilots anywhere else in the world), and received minimal training, in order to keep up with the enormous training quotas dictated by Stalin.But what Stalin never suspected, was the possibility that in his regime of mass terror and fear, where so many millions were imprisoned and millions others killed by the police, and where tens of millions starved for years in order to pay for the enormous cost of the vast effort to convert Russia with a period of just two decades from a mostly agricultural country to an industrial militarist super-power with gigantic military power. Stalin never suspected that under a massive attack on his brutal regime, the people, the millions of soldiers who previously suffered from the regime, millions were former political prisoners of which many were recruited from hard labor prisons directly to war front military service, will favor surrender to defending their homeland, or will have no willingness to fight immediately as they realized that since they're country is being massively attacked there's a good chance that they can escape from the war without being punished by the formidable regime. Given the possibility that for the first time in their life non-cooperation with the Communist regime will NOT be severely punished, so many favored that option, and that's something the Russian censorship could never admit.
  So while in all material aspects Russia was enormously prepared for war, and could therefore theoretically manage much better than it did, even under a massive surprise attack, in morale terms, the Russian people in the front (which rapidly moved East all across the long front), were generally unwilling to fight for their terrible terror regime once fear of it was lost since the regime itself was being attacked and in danger.

Also...http://www.2worldwar2.com/mistakes.htm

• In 1941, Stalin received a stream of information from military intelligence and spies, that Germany is going to invade Russia, as Hitler promised since the 1920s. After discussions, Stalin decided that the information was inconclusive and perhaps deliberate disinformation, and decided that there will be no invasion. As the invasion came nearer, the stream of information indicating invasion intensified, but then Stalin forbid his advisors from further disturbing him with it. Anyone who still suggested that there might be a German invasion, risked execution. Fear was such that when the invasion started, no one dared to awake Stalin and tell him about it, until Zhukov, the deputy supreme commander, told Stalin's bodyguards that he takes responsibility for awakening the dictator and telling him the bad news.

• Both Hitler and Stalin refused to allow retreats, as a matter of principle and regardless of the military situation. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers in each side died in vain because they were not allowed to retreat when was necessary. Russia almost lost the war because of that in 1941, and Hitler's army suffered horrible losses because of that, mainly in the winter of 1942 and in Stalingrad a year later.

Until April 1941, Russia was at war with Japan in the far East, and in 1941-1942 it fought desperately against the German invasion. But since the end of the battle of Stalingrad in Feb. 1943, Russia knew that it was going to win the war, and that Germany and Japan were losing it. It was convenient for Russia to focus entirely on defeating Germany and leave the war against Japan entirely to the US, which also provided Russia with enormous material support. During the war, Russia provided air bases for British heavy bombers which bombed Germany, but refused to provide such bases for American bombers in the Russian far East, apparently in return for a quiet Japanese agreement not to attack American supply convoys sailing to Russia's far East ports.

And from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II

In the initial hours after the German attack commenced, Stalin hesitated, wanting to ensure that the German attack was sanctioned by Hitler, rather than the unauthorized action of a rogue general.[SUP][53][/SUP] Accounts by Nikita Khrushchev and Anastas Mikoyan claim that, after the invasion, Stalin retreated to his dacha in despair for several days and did not participate in leadership decisions.[SUP][54][/SUP] However, some documentary evidence of orders given by Stalin contradicts these accounts, leading some historians to speculate that Khrushchev's account is inaccurate.[SUP][55][/SUP]
In the first three weeks of the invasion, attempting to defend against large German advances, the Soviet Union suffered 750,000 casualties, and lost 10,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft.[SUP][56][/SUP] In July 1940, Stalin completely reorganized the Soviet military, placing himself directly in charge of several military organizations, which gave him complete control of his country's entire war effort; more control than any other leader in World War II.[SUP][57][/SUP]
A pattern soon emerged where Stalin embraced the Red Army's strategy of conducting multiple offensives, while the Germans soon overran each of the resulting small newly gained grounds, dealing the Soviets severe casualties.[SUP][58][/SUP] The most notable example of this was the Battle of Kiev, where over 600,000 Soviet troops were quickly killed, captured or had gone missing.[SUP][58][/SUP]
By the end of 1941, the Soviet military had suffered 4.3 million casualties[SUP][59][/SUP] and the Germans had captured 3.0 million Soviet prisoners, 2.0 million of which would die in German captivity by February 1942.[SUP][56][/SUP] German forces had advanced c. 1,700 kilometers, and maintained a linearly-measured front of 3,000 kilometers.[SUP][60][/SUP] The Red Army put up fierce resistance during the war's early stages. Even so, according to Glantz, they were plagued by an ineffective defense doctrine against well-trained and experienced German forces, despite possessing some modern Soviet equipment such as theKV-1 and T-34 tanks.

At the same time, worried by the possibility of American support after their entry into the war following the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and a potential Anglo-American invasion on the Western Front in 1942 (which would not actually happen until 1944), Hitler shifted his primary goal from an immediate victory in the East, to the more long-term goal of securing the southern Soviet Union to protect oil fields vital to the long-term German war effort.[SUP][69[/SUP]

The Germans did attempt an encirclement attack at Kursk, which was successfully repulsed by the Soviets[SUP][78][/SUP] after Hitler canceled the offensive, in part, because of the Allied invasion of Sicily,[SUP][79][/SUP] though the Soviets suffered over 800,000 casualties.[SUP][80][/SUP]

Yeah, it is hard to understand the Soviets...

 

[billc]

also from wikipedia on the Red Army...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#The_Great_Patriotic_War

The unprepared Soviet forces suffered much damage in the field because of mediocre officers, partial mobilization, an incomplete reorganization and mainly because they were arranged to attack Central Europe, and not to defend Soviet territory.[SUP][39][/SUP] The hasty pre-war forces expansion and the over-promotion of inexperienced officers (owing to the purging of experienced officers) favored the Wehrmacht in combat.[SUP][39][/SUP]

And another great mistake by Stalin that almost lost the war for the Soviets...

Purges

Further information: Case of Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization
The late 1930s saw the so-called Purges of the Red Army Cadres, which occurred concurrently with Stalin's Great Purge of Soviet society. In 1936 and 1937, at the orders of Stalin, thousands of Red Army officers were dismissed from their commands. The purges had the objective of cleansing the Red Army of the "politically unreliable elements", mainly among higher-ranking officers. This inevitably provided a convenient pretext for the settling of personal vendettas or to eliminate competition by officers seeking the same command. Many army, corps, and divisional commanders were sacked, most were imprisoned or sent to labor camps; others were executed. Among the victims was the Red Army's primary military theorist, Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky, perceived by Stalin as a potential political rival. Officers who remained soon found all of their decisions being closely examined by political officers, even in mundane matters such as record-keeping and field training exercises.[SUP][72][/SUP] An atmosphere of fear and unwillingness to take the initiative soon pervaded the Red Army; suicide rates among junior officers rose to record levels.[SUP][72][/SUP] Most historians believe that the purges significantly impaired the combat capabilities of the Red Army. However, the extent of the consequential damage attributable to them is still debated.
Recently declassified data indicate that in 1937, at the height of the Purges, the Red Army had 114,300 officers, of whom 11,034 were dismissed. In 1938, the Red Army had 179,000 officers, 56% more than in 1937, of whom a further 6,742 were sacked. In the highest echelons of the Red Army the Purges removed 3 of 5 marshals, 13 of 15 army generals, 8 of 9 admirals, 50 of 57 army corps generals, 154 out of 186 division generals, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.[SUP][73][/SUP]
The result was that the Red Army officer corps in 1941 had many inexperienced senior officers. While 60% of regimental commanders had two years or more of command experience in June 1941, and almost 80% of rifle division commanders, only 20% of corps commanders, and 5% or fewer army and military district commanders, had the same level of experience.[SUP][74][/SUP]

So the Soviets finally defeated the Germans because of bad weather, bad German decisions, the other front on Germany's western side, including the destruction of German industry, and the material support from the Capitalists...

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, I think this would a good thread of it's own. In the meantime, here is a German movie on Stalingrad that presents an interesting perspective.

Yeah, it's a full movie, but watch it and see what the Germans think of Stalingrad.

 

[Instructor]

The book Enemy at the Gates was researched very thoroughly. The author took pains to find survivors of the battle of Stalingrad on both the Russian and German side. If you would like an entertaining and highly accurate read, I recommend it.


Us - them..... I never could do it. If somebody shoots at me I shoot back but it doesn't make my enemy any less human than me.

 

[Makalakumu]

The book Enemy at the Gates was researched very thoroughly. The author took pains to find survivors of the battle of Stalingrad on both the Russian and German side. If you would like an entertaining and highly accurate read, I recommend it.


Us - them..... I never could do it. If somebody shoots at me I shoot back but it doesn't make my enemy any less human than me.

I forgot about that book, good suggestion.

I'm not very good at the us/them thing as well...or maybe I choose not to be good at it. Lots of men and women choose a different path and they feel that this decision gives this society great benefit. The people on the other end of the guns speak a different story...so perhaps shootings like the one that happened in Aurora can teach us a collective lesson on what it's like to be on the other end of the gun where the shooter has dehumanized US?

I imagine a world where less and less humans choose to dehumanize each other. I would sure like to bring that world into existence if I can...

 

[ballen0351]

What do you think caused the me vs everyone else attitude?

 

[granfire]

What do you think caused the me vs everyone else attitude?

Barney.

 

[granfire]

This article looks at the Soviets during world war 2, their intention to invade the west, which was beaten by Germany invading two weeks early and why they lost so quickly at first...

http://www.2worldwar2.com/russia.htm



Also...http://www.2worldwar2.com/mistakes.htm







And from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II







Yeah, it is hard to understand the Soviets...

billi....billi.....billi.....

The Russians wanted to move closer into Europe for many reasons (and good old Stalin had paid attention to Adolf, thus he made the pack with him to buy time), not the least being that the eastern part of Russia is friggin cold and stuff grows better in the west.

next, Stalin did not WIN Stalingrad, Hitler LOST it. You think Stalin did the bone head moves, Hitler had him beat by far...I mean, on the way to the oilfields to the south we take a detour north to capture a town that has no significance other than the name....and then we don't turn back when things go bad. Good one, Adolf....

Ah, and the weather, and the country side....
That is part of the strategy that has been employed by Russian rulers for centuries before that. Most Notable by Peter the Great against the Swedes, then by Tzar Alexander I.
Mother Russia was always part of the defense system: retreat and burn....and if you are stupid and get caught with your trousers down you freeze your butt off.

 

[Makalakumu]

What do you think caused the me vs everyone else attitude?

It probably started as a defense mechanism that hearkens back to the ice ages. Now, I think it does more harm than good, considering how closely all of us live together. I doubt something like this is genetic, because people regularly refuse or unlearn this behavior.

Which brings us around to what I think causes it...we learn it from each other, it gets passed on when it benefits society, and, IMO, we can unlearn it when it ceases to benefit us any more. Perhaps we are at that point?

I think this video gives us evidence that we might be moving beyond that point. People need to realize, IMO, that this behavior could very well lead to our extinction.