Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

Internet -> me. I have mastered being a keyboard warrior.

BJJ. Carlson Gracie -> Helio Gracie -> Rickson Gracie -> Takamasa Watanabe -> Rodrigo Taniguti -> me (blue belt) My current school is run by Nova Uniao black belts. The head instructor is Leandro Nyza of the Luiz Franca/Oswaldo Fadda lineage with me primarily learning under Jay Penn... honestly not sure who gave him his black belt. Hopefully I'll eventually get my purple from one of these guys.
 
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BigJavi973 said:
IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from.
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Why?

You should know if it works, you should know if it's good. But peoples lineages are a mess and often tend to just list the person that has the highest rank that they trained with, even if they actually spent 90% of their time training with someone else.

I suspect anyone that is fairly serious about martial arts and has been training a while has learnt something from a huge number of people. Even if you spend 30 years under a single instructor, their will be a lot picked up from others.

We are also at a point where things are easy to check into. If you are learning a technique and then start doing some youtubing and realize every other instructor seems to have different details and better theory and explanations... something is up. You can go and compete at tournaments with other schools, you can cross train.

Lineage is a weird concept, it seems fairly unique to martial arts. But even there, do you think anyone cares about Muhammed Ali's lineage? Or maybe Dan Gable's? Or if we go eastern styles, would Kimura's lineage effect his accomplishments? Would it change your opinion of Jigoro Kano if you found out his instructors where average and nothing famous or special?

It doesn't seem to apply in other activities at all. Anyone care what Michael Phelps Lineage is? Who Trump studied politics under? Where did Mark Cuban study business?

Playing connect the dots until you find someone famous serves little purpose. Even in traditional styles where preservation is the goal, everything is documented now. You can probably find video of the top guys in any major style at any point in the last 50-75 years doing their thing.

What matters is you and the person coaching you. That's it. They could be a great instructor that came from a mediocre school, or a terrible instructor that came from a great one.
 
Tony Dismukes said:
See if this helps:

"We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
Colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
Of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
And Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
Sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
And arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'Cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
Blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
Judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
One explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
We was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
What I came to tell you about."
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Just barely. I haven't listened to any Arlo Guthrie in ages.
 
Andrew Green said:
Why?

You should know if it works, you should know if it's good. But peoples lineages are a mess and often tend to just list the person that has the highest rank that they trained with, even if they actually spent 90% of their time training with someone else.

I suspect anyone that is fairly serious about martial arts and has been training a while has learnt something from a huge number of people. Even if you spend 30 years under a single instructor, their will be a lot picked up from others.

We are also at a point where things are easy to check into. If you are learning a technique and then start doing some youtubing and realize every other instructor seems to have different details and better theory and explanations... something is up. You can go and compete at tournaments with other schools, you can cross train.

Lineage is a weird concept, it seems fairly unique to martial arts. But even there, do you think anyone cares about Muhammed Ali's lineage? Or maybe Dan Gable's? Or if we go eastern styles, would Kimura's lineage effect his accomplishments? Would it change your opinion of Jigoro Kano if you found out his instructors where average and nothing famous or special?

It doesn't seem to apply in other activities at all. Anyone care what Michael Phelps Lineage is? Who Trump studied politics under? Where did Mark Cuban study business?

Playing connect the dots until you find someone famous serves little purpose. Even in traditional styles where preservation is the goal, everything is documented now. You can probably find video of the top guys in any major style at any point in the last 50-75 years doing their thing.

What matters is you and the person coaching you. That's it. They could be a great instructor that came from a mediocre school, or a terrible instructor that came from a great one.
Click to expand...
Actually, in other sports, lineage is often mentioned. A new football head coach will be identified by who he coached under, and maybe who he played under. Knowing a golfer was coached by a certain short-game coach tells you something about his or her likely approach to the short game. Knowing a basketball player started in college under a specific coach tells you something about the kind or game he has been trained to play, and what expectations he met.
 
Lineages. Clan stuff. Small talk about the who, when and where. Fun to gab about, but that's about it.

To dwell on it, to make it all important.....misses the point of Martial Arts in my opinion.
 
Buka said:
Lineages. Clan stuff. Small talk about the who, when and where. Fun to gab about, but that's about it.

To dwell on it, to make it all important.....misses the point of Martial Arts in my opinion.
Click to expand...

In some rare cases it makes a difference in CMA, usually to weed out the occasional charlatan, but it is rare. I've heard of it being used on Mainland China and a few times here and I used it twice on MT and one of those times the proof of lie came from the Yang family. But in the US it makes little difference, even when you prove the false
 
Xue Sheng said:
In some rare cases it makes a difference in CMA, usually to weed out the occasional charlatan, but it is rare. I've heard of it being used on Mainland China and a few times here and I used it twice on MT and one of those times the proof of lie came from the Yang family. But in the US it makes little difference, even when you prove the false
Click to expand...
Here's how I look at it - the only way lineage can show up a charlatan is if he/she claims a lineage falsely. If someone doesn't claim a lineage, then lineage is only a matter of curiosity and intellectual pursuit. For instance, if someone claimed to teach BJJ (without claiming any specific lineage), but had never trained under a BJJ black belt or other competent instructor, they might catch some real flack....unless they actually taught really good BJJ (they and their students were of similar competence to others in BJJ). Thus, the lineage isn't really an issue unless someone claims it. Otherwise, it's their effectiveness.

NOTE: I don't know how someone would come to teach effective BJJ without that exposure to competent instructors, either. It's just a hypothetical extreme.
 
My "current" lineage -
Mas Oyama - Tadashi Nakamura - Don Carter - Me

My "former" lineage -
Mas Oyama - Tadashi Nakamura - Frank Rossetti/William Reid - Tom Starr - Me

Current lineage means under my current teacher. Former means my former teacher. Everyone in those lineages had instruction from others, but those were their main teachers. Nakamura did some Goju and Iado before Kyokushin, Reid was an Army boxer and dabbled in other MA at a lower level before meeting Nakamura, Rossetti was a Judo sensei before Nakamura, etc, Carter trained under Reid and Rossetti until they split from Nakamura, etc.

It all gets messy, and just about all of it goes out the window once I'm on the floor anyway. The most important link in the chain to me is my teacher - me.
 
My lineage for Southern White Crane is as follows:

Ang Liang Huat --> Dennis Ngo --> Russell Suthern --> Me

That's really as far back as I can track, as Master Ang had a number of different teachers including supposed connections to the Tee Family. Each teacher taught him a different style which he then combined together to form what is now the tiger-crane combination of southern white crane.
 
Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.
 
gpseymour said:
Here's how I look at it - the only way lineage can show up a charlatan is if he/she claims a lineage falsely. If someone doesn't claim a lineage, then lineage is only a matter of curiosity and intellectual pursuit. For instance, if someone claimed to teach BJJ (without claiming any specific lineage), but had never trained under a BJJ black belt or other competent instructor, they might catch some real flack....unless they actually taught really good BJJ (they and their students were of similar competence to others in BJJ). Thus, the lineage isn't really an issue unless someone claims it. Otherwise, it's their effectiveness.

NOTE: I don't know how someone would come to teach effective BJJ without that exposure to competent instructors, either. It's just a hypothetical extreme.
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The times in CMA I am referring to are lineage claims that are false and were made to gain students and dollars....or Yuan in a few cases. Claims to Yang family lineage, one false claim to being a member of the Yang Taijiquan family a few claims to Chen Taiji family lineages, there were 2 made to my Taiji shifu as well that were false.and one to Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan) that was on mainland that resulted in a public apology for making false claims.., which was made in lieu of receiving a beating. All were made for marketing purposes.
 
BigJavi973 said:
Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.
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Does it, really? I could create a McDojo with my background, or I could teach to deliver skill in a useful way (to meet the needs of the students, whatever those needs are). Lineage doesn't stop that.
 
Xue Sheng said:
The times in CMA I am referring to are lineage claims that are false and were made to gain students and dollars....or Yuan in a few cases. Claims to Yang family lineage, one false claim to being a member of the Yang Taijiquan family a few claims to Chen Taiji family lineages, there were 2 made to my Taiji shifu as well that were false.and one to Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan) that was on mainland that resulted in a public apology for making false claims.., which was made in lieu of receiving a beating. All were made for marketing purposes.
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Yes, that's the kind of stuff I was referring to. Lineage is useful for debunking false claims of lineage. That's a practice that most of us know is more common than we wish, so that makes some lineage tracking useful, and perhaps necessary.
 
The oral traditions of our system claim that it originated in Tibet in the 1400s, by a monk named Ordator. There are a number of unknown generations in there, but it passed thru a fellow named Dorawkitan, who developed it further. Then a lama named Sing Lung brought it into Southern China. His student, Wong Lum Hoi taught many people, including Ng Siu Chung, who established the White Crane lineage from the parent Tibetan lama system. He also had another teacher, Chu Chi-Yiu. From Ng Siu Chung, it passed to Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu, among many others. These two people were both teachers of my sifu, Quentin Fong. For a number of years I was a student of Bryant Fong, who was also a student of Quentin. Bryant took me to meet Sifu Quentin, and I was allowed to become his student.

So, Ordator - ??- Dorawkitan -??- Sing Lung - Wong Lum Hoi and Chu Chi-Yiu - Ng Siu Chung - Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu -Quentin Fong - me.
 
BigJavi973 said:
Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.
Click to expand...

Not at all. I suspect there are large number of what you would call "McDojos" that use lineage to prop themselves up and avoid questions to their methods.
 
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