martial arts are better now

[ralphmcpherson]

The tenets are a General Choi creation; it is not part of Kukki Taekwondo, although many dojang have adopted it as part of their curriculum.

The idea of walking away from fights is, I believe, a uniquely Japanese concept. I am told that Chinese martial arts had no such prohibitions, at least not as strongly stated as in Japanese styles. In Japan, the concept was necessary because Samurai would test themselves against other Samurai, and their tests were with live blades. Ordinary Japanese did not have swords and in general did not attack each other anyway so it was unnecessary for them to have any sort of formalized code. But samurai were a different story, hence the concept that the sword should remain in its scabbard.

I always imagined the "walking away from fights" thing to be more a result of popularity in western society. Most of the parents of students I talk to are very certain about wanting little johnny to be able to fight but are equally certain they do not want little johnny getting into fights. One of our students (a 17 year old 1st dan) was attacked by 3 school bullies after school and beat all 3 up pretty badly. The school suspended him for a week and his father applauded the school for doing so. I felt sorry for him, what was he supposed to do, just stand there and let them beat him up? From what Ive seen parents get off on the whole "walk away from fights" thing, so Ive just assumed that teaching it is good for business.

 

[puunui]

One of our students (a 17 year old 1st dan) was attacked by 3 school bullies after school and beat all 3 up pretty badly. The school suspended him for a week and his father applauded the school for doing so. I felt sorry for him, what was he supposed to do, just stand there and let them beat him up? From what Ive seen parents get off on the whole "walk away from fights" thing, so Ive just assumed that teaching it is good for business.

When I was a little kid, maybe 5 or 6 years old, my grandfather used to take me to watch Samurai movies every Sunday. All the kids there would wear plastic samurai swords and walk around like that at the theater. I asked my grandfather for a plastic sword too and he said that if you want a sword then you have to learn to use it first. So he cut a bamboo sword for me from our yard and made me practice Suburi I think he called it, which was a downward cut to the sofa arm. My mother saw that and was horrified so we changed to striking a couch pillow instead. I had to do that 100 times a day for I don't know how long until my grandfather finally bought me that plastic sword. The next time we went to the theater, another boy drew his sword at me and was making menacing moves like he was a samurai bad guy in one of the movies. So I drew my sword and started doing suburi on him, and he froze up while I bashed him on the head and shoulder I don't know how many times while he stood there crying like a panty. We were taken to the office and I thought I was in a lot of trouble but then my grandfather ended up vehemently defending me, stating that the other boy drew his sword on me so what was I supposed to do but respond. We got banned from that theater but I never forgot how my grandfather had my back, no matter what. He never told my parents either, and we ended up going to another Japanese samurai theater on Sundays. When he passed away, he ended up leaving me everything, including the first books in my martial arts book collection.

 

[andyjeffries]

Nobody in the first couple UFCs knew how to deal with Royce Gracie's BJJ.

This is a bit of a myth. There were judo guys, sambo guys and shoot fighters in the first few UFCs. I went back and watched them all again a while back and was surprised at how many technical ground fighters were there. Granted, not all of them were comfortable on the mats, but a good percentage were. Frank Shamrock in particular was very comfortable on the ground, having fought for years in Asia, but he wasn't the only one.

I watched the early ones again recently myself and I agree with StudentCarl. There were some competent groundfighters in the early UFCs but they still could not deal with Gracie's BJJ. Taking your example of Frank Shamrock, he fought Royce Gracie at UFC 1 and was submitted in 57 seconds. I don't consider that "dealing" with Gracie BJJ. You can watch a video of that fight.

In fact if you look at it his first 10 fights in the UFC they finished at 2:11, 0:57, 1:44, 5:08, 1:07, 1:31, 1:17, 4:40, 3:59 and 5:32. Only two of his first 10 fights went outside what would be called the first round in modern UFC. That hardly seems like the fighters knew how to deal with his style.

I think StudentCarl's (widely held) opinion is a lot more fact than myth.

 

[andyjeffries]

One of our students (a 17 year old 1st dan) was attacked by 3 school bullies after school and beat all 3 up pretty badly. The school suspended him for a week and his father applauded the school for doing so. I felt sorry for him, what was he supposed to do, just stand there and let them beat him up?

I'm sorry but that's absolutely disgusting! You hear of people dying all the time from being beaten up by people on the streets and the school/parents want to encourage people to take their beating then "go tell a teacher". WTF?!!! (in the non-Taekwondo sense of the abbreviation)

Honestly, I'm fuming and disgusted that any parent can act that way.

 

[dancingalone]

The idea of walking away from fights is, I believe, a uniquely Japanese concept. I am told that Chinese martial arts had no such prohibitions, at least not as strongly stated as in Japanese styles. In Japan, the concept was necessary because Samurai would test themselves against other Samurai, and their tests were with live blades. Ordinary Japanese did not have swords and in general did not attack each other anyway so it was unnecessary for them to have any sort of formalized code. But samurai were a different story, hence the concept that the sword should remain in its scabbard.

Okinawan karate has plenty of stories about the legendary masters getting into violent altercations and killing other men. The primary proponents of karate as a method towards self-improvement rather than a particularly brutal fighting system seem to be the later masters like Funakoshi or Nagamine who undoubtedly were affected to a great extent by Japanese attitudes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When I was a little kid, maybe 5 or 6 years old, my grandfather used to take me to watch Samurai movies every Sunday. All the kids there would wear plastic samurai swords and walk around like that at the theater. I asked my grandfather for a plastic sword too and he said that if you want a sword then you have to learn to use it first. So he cut a bamboo sword for me from our yard and made me practice Suburi I think he called it, which was a downward cut to the sofa arm. My mother saw that and was horrified so we changed to striking a couch pillow instead. I had to do that 100 times a day for I don't know how long until my grandfather finally bought me that plastic sword.

Yes, it is called suburi. Your grandfather sounds like a very cool gent.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

I watched the early ones again recently myself and I agree with StudentCarl. There were some competent groundfighters in the early UFCs but they still could not deal with Gracie's BJJ. Taking your example of Frank Shamrock, he fought Royce Gracie at UFC 1 and was submitted in 57 seconds. I don't consider that "dealing" with Gracie BJJ. You can watch a video of that fight.

In fact if you look at it his first 10 fights in the UFC they finished at 2:11, 0:57, 1:44, 5:08, 1:07, 1:31, 1:17, 4:40, 3:59 and 5:32. Only two of his first 10 fights went outside what would be called the first round in modern UFC. That hardly seems like the fighters knew how to deal with his style.

I think StudentCarl's (widely held) opinion is a lot more fact than myth.

Don't get me wrong. He kicked their butts. I agree that jiu jitsu is awesome, because clearly it is. My point is that it's not like people saw anything all that new. He was just better at it. Armbars, triangles and such are not unknown to judoka or sambo players. Shamrock even won several of his fights by submission... at least one heel hook and an RNC. It was a failed heel hook attempt that allowed Royce Gracie to get on top and eventually secure the ezekial choke.

While Gracie did surprise an overconfident Shamrock, their next fight was a superfight in UFC 4 (IIRC) and went to a draw after 30 minutes.

Heck, in UFC 3, Shamrock won a match against Christophe Leininger, an elite level judoka who I believe also had trained BJJ. In that match, he was going after shamrock from guard with triangle attempts and armbars.

There is actually some pretty high level ground fighting on display in the early UFCs by people who had names other than Gracie. Main point is this: it wasn't that the ground technicians underestimated BJJ or were unaware of it. They underestimated Royce Gracie, the person. It was the little, unassuming guy in a gi that threw them off. Not any exotic technique that they'd never seen.

And of course, the strikers were lost once taken to the mat.

Regarding the judgements about the character of people who train in various martial arts, my opinion is that this is also a myth. People are people, and there are good people and bad who train in all martial arts.

 

[jks9199]

Okinawan karate has plenty of stories about the legendary masters getting into violent altercations and killing other men. The primary proponents of karate as a method towards self-improvement rather than a particularly brutal fighting system seem to be the later masters like Funakoshi or Nagamine who undoubtedly were affected to a great extent by Japanese attitudes.

Actually, I seem to recall reading from several sources that a lot of the "do" or "way of self improvement" stuff started as a cover and justification to prevent the US occupation troops from prohibiting martial arts training. I'm sure it wasn't all of them, or the only reason, of course.

 

[Steve]

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=522814940359

Link to the Leininger v Shamrock fight. Good fight. Leininger is taken down pretty hard, recovers but eventually loses to ground and pound. A pretty interesting, technical ground fight in an early UFC and Royce isn't in it at all.

 

[andyjeffries]

Main point is this: it wasn't that the ground technicians underestimated BJJ or were unaware of it. They underestimated Royce Gracie, the person. It was the little, unassuming guy in a gi that threw them off. Not any exotic technique that they'd never seen.

I agree, but StudentCarl's point was "Nobody in the first couple UFCs knew how to deal with Royce Gracie's BJJ". Not that no-one knew how to deal with BJJ, but they couldn't deal with Royce Gracie's BJJ.

As I'm sure you'll agree there are a lot of different flavours of BJJ out there and while they may have had experience of training against the same techniques, maybe it was the flowing way they were applied that they were not used to handling. Maybe it was Royce's grip strength they weren't used to.

But I stand by the original comment from StudentCarl, he blitzed his first 10 fights and people could not deal with it.

People are people, and there are good people and bad who train in all martial arts.

Agree 1,000,000%!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually, I seem to recall reading from several sources that a lot of the "do" or "way of self improvement" stuff started as a cover and justification to prevent the US occupation troops from prohibiting martial arts training. I'm sure it wasn't all of them, or the only reason, of course.

Actually, that trend began with the Meiji restoration and the subsequent modernization of Japan and efforts to distance the nation from its feudal past.

In order to survive into the then modern era, the arts had to change and adapt. Kendo is a good example of this. The shift from kenjutsu to kendo began long before WWII.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Actually, I seem to recall reading from several sources that a lot of the "do" or "way of self improvement" stuff started as a cover and justification to prevent the US occupation troops from prohibiting martial arts training. I'm sure it wasn't all of them, or the only reason, of course.

I think it predated WWII, but to be sure the defeat of Japan and the use of nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought about a strong Nipponese pacifist movement which helped feed this development.

 

[puunui]

Actually, that trend began with the Meiji restoration and the subsequent modernization of Japan and efforts to distance the nation from its feudal past.
In order to survive into the then modern era, the arts had to change and adapt. Kendo is a good example of this. The shift from kenjutsu to kendo began long before WWII.

I think it went earlier than that, to the Tokugawa shogunate. Once Shogun TOKUGAWA Ieyasu unified Japan, there were no more wars, and therefore no real need for trained armies of samurai, for 350 years. Hence, the changed focus to self development and self discovery. The Meiji Restoration banned the samurai class (and their weaponry) altogether, which is what led to the development of Kendo, Judo, the increased focus on Jujitsu, including Aiki Jujutsu, etc.